tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post1096283490114395533..comments2024-03-19T05:47:41.701-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: More hours, more results?: questions for Professor Scott KernChemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-62531925655955123162010-10-19T00:52:36.415-04:002010-10-19T00:52:36.415-04:00I must say that reading these comments only confir...I must say that reading these comments only confirms Kern's conclusion. I will mention first that Kern comes off as a true ass-monkey, but I think he does raise an important point. All of the (very valid) arguments of warm bodies in lab not equaling productivity and life/lab balance aside, it seems that many of the commenters here view the work that do as just that: work. I think the take-away point from Kern's essay is that many of us scientists spend too much time sulking in the doldrums of trouble-shooting a shitty assay or pimping ourselves and first-born for funding that we forget the reason we are in science in the first place: the thrill of discovery. Hopefully the passion, or at the very least the egocentric drive to prove yourself better than your competitor, makes it's way back into science.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-59918440323238773522010-10-05T13:20:37.104-04:002010-10-05T13:20:37.104-04:00All this talk of obligatory 60-80 hours a week is ...All this talk of obligatory 60-80 hours a week is dumb unless there is some benefit to the students or society. Too many f us slave away in the lab and maybe get lucky enough to publish papers (which will probably have no impact on society) without learning how to think, be creative or come up with new ideas. We have become robots who destroy our social skills so our PI can get more funding.<br />Obviously phd is not regular 9-to-5 job, but it should not be just labor. Back in the day, universities graduated scientist and independent researcher, whereas today, we graduate phds. The culture of turning out mass chemists to satisfy school needs, PI grants and some statistics is killing the field. It is sad to see so many fellow coworkers graduate without having a lot more insight or ideas about chemistry than myself (3rd year synthetic chem). So many are pushed to the limits to just work and produce results that they neglect the more important aspects of graduate school, the intellectual part.<br /><br />If you all keep up with literature, it’s obvious to see that so much “crap” comes out that does not add any value to our knowledge of chemistry; just adds to vast information we produced. More and more research is repetitive or ligand screening. Many new hot papers are just optimization of old chemistry that is sold as the newest greatest thing in the world. <br /><br />You can work all you want, but the Chinese will outwork you and will do it for a lot less money. On top of that, all the research and RD we are sending over there will soon allow them out think us.Aleknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-60148747829585338982010-10-05T11:56:40.583-04:002010-10-05T11:56:40.583-04:00@Old Timer: You may have left and got swamped by t...@Old Timer: You may have left and got swamped by the anonymouses. And I will admit, I may be being a little unfair in the way I'm responding.<br /><br />You are correct, I am currently not a PhD student. I am a part time research assistant. I get into the lab at nine, and leave at five. When I get home I do the washing up, organise my emails, do whatever the next stage of the clothes washing is, then collapse infront of the TV and pass out for a few hours. When I return, I do some work on the computer before heading to bed. Sometimes instead of doing that, I play the flute or do some fiction writing. Does that show my lack of passion for science.<br /><br />"doing laundry, cleaning the house, watching movies with the family etc, does NOT take an entire weekend. It takes Sat night and maybe Sun night." Maybe I'm just really inefficient at cleaning, but I tend not to have much time on the weekends when I'm not either cleaning, sleeping, going out with my fiance or doing work on the computer. Sometimes when my fiance is working the weekend shift I head into the lab for a bit.<br /><br />Maybe when I'm actually meant to work full time as a PhD student I will put in longer hours, but I'm not sure how many more hours I could manage before falling over sideways.<br /><br />It's OK that you don't want me in your lab, I think the feeling is probably mutual at this point.<br /><br />[I already have an MS]Lab Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07962574174521597312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-20916873182163059252010-10-05T05:14:58.826-04:002010-10-05T05:14:58.826-04:00Hey Jablonski,
Yes, it's crazy about the lit...Hey Jablonski, <br /><br />Yes, it's crazy about the literature situation. Essentially all Uni libraries now have card readers at the door, and usually no system to get access as an independent researcher. Next year JACS will be electronic only, so you can't even scrounge old issues from colleagues! Secondly, no-one has paper copies of chem abstracts anymore (not that I would wish that on anyone). <br /><br />Soon, soon, non-affiliated folks will be as totally shut out from the literature as scientists in developing nations. At least they get free access from some publishers!Eka-siliconnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-71657376677725195672010-10-04T15:52:47.754-04:002010-10-04T15:52:47.754-04:00From a non-scientist: Anyone every heard about &qu...From a non-scientist: Anyone every heard about "the law of diminishing returns?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-86346274664988745772010-10-04T09:39:18.860-04:002010-10-04T09:39:18.860-04:00IIRC, one of the physician bloggers on Science-Bas...IIRC, one of the physician bloggers on Science-Based Medicine said 'cancer is not a disease, it is many diseases". And there are so many diseases worth curing: asthma, various psychiatric disorders, et al.<br /><br />However, it is never worth spending time at work just to show up, like the Japanese do - come in before the boss gets there, leave after the boss leaves, unless he invites you and colleagues to go out partying. Most of the pre-boss and post-boss time isn't spent working, rather spent on reading newspapers and other time killing activities. It's all part of social protocol.<br /><br />If there is no legitimate reason to be at work, have a life! You never know where your next good idea will come from. You will not lament on your deathbed that you wish you had spent more time at work. In this economy, there may be an unrelated sideline you can turn into an enjoyable additional source of income (no, I'm <br />not talking about scAmway). Enjoy nature<br /><br />Enjoy nature, travel, friends, family. Life is short. When at work, work hard, and with passion. Just don't spend your the majority of your time there to the detriment of your life.anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-65821118307260901042010-10-04T00:29:02.178-04:002010-10-04T00:29:02.178-04:00I was in computer software, and there, as in many ...I was in computer software, and there, as in many other fields people confuse "face time" with productivity. You really can only put in so many hours before your brain shuts down. Sure, there are times when one has to sprint and put in the hours, but those are episodic. When they are over, the hours go back to normal.<br /><br />Part of the problem is that there are jobs where hours are proportional to work. If you are milling machine parts or gutting chickens, you do so many an hour. More hours mean more parts or more chickens, but more hours don't mean more research, more good ideas or even more useful observations. Unfortunately, there isn't a good metric that works instead. Closing off a dead end alley can be just as useful as moving down the right boulevard.<br /><br />Unfortunately, this had societal impact. You often hear people complaining about working more and more hours. Then you go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site and discover that the average work week has been falling in the United States since the 1950s. The disconnect shows up in the time use studies. <br /><br />Employers buy employees two ways, by the hour or by the year. (Salaries are usually quoted per annum.) The low end end employees (the non-exempts) cost per hour, so smart bosses minimize their hours. This actually sucks, but you don't hear a lot of whining because most blogs, articles and what not are written by higher paid exempt employees. <br /><br />These exempt employees get no additional pay for additional hours, so management pushes them to put in more hours, directly or indirectly. So, while the bagger at the supermarket would love to get 30 hours and qualify for health insurance, the PhD chemist would love to get down to 50 hours a week and a learn the names of his or her children.<br /><br />These two effects: the lack of a productivity metric and exempt employee status result in pressure for more face time. If researchers were paid by the hour, you can bet you'd see strict 40 hour week enforcement and much more lab automation and production efficiency. Not that this would get us a cure for cancer any sooner: "Ooh, ooh, I figured it out. It was so obvious! Let me just punch in on the time clock, and mankind will be free of this wretched scourge forever." Ka-thunk! "Now, what was that idea again?"Kaleberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03509179728704635798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-76468195776463962282010-10-03T17:26:58.557-04:002010-10-03T17:26:58.557-04:00If you are REALLY good, then you will have a job/a...If you are REALLY good, then you will have a job/academic position. Are you really talented?<br /><br />In science you can do whatever you want, and grad school gives you the opportunity to follow YOUR OWN ideas to inventions and discoveries.<br /><br />But if you find yourself playing video games, not publishing and just messing around for 6 years. PLEASE stop whining and complaining that you were misled by science and your supervisor.<br /><br />If you are terrible or at best mediocre, you will struggle like everyone else. It’s tough out there in the real world. <br /><br />It sickened me to see how much wasted money goes to funding bad ideas, bad grad students, and PIs whose job it seems to travel and drink it up at conferences on my tax dollars.<br /><br />ANYONE can get into grad school, stop thinking that you are among the chosen elite. It’s time to wake up and realize that graduate school can be a big waste of time if YOU don’t do anything. <br /><br />There are only so many cushy government jobs out there, so work hard and make something of yourself, or leave and do something else because obviously you are so gifted and talented to be a chemistry graduate student.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-39351893169785341512010-10-03T17:25:15.352-04:002010-10-03T17:25:15.352-04:00Please, everyone with some sense of self-worth and...Please, everyone with some sense of self-worth and sanity, please stop feeding the internet trolls. Those who think we researchers don't deserve an outside life (including meaningful amounts of contact with our families) or who think we should be eager to give up our "pride" don't deserve replies.<br /><br />Getting back to the original topic, it was my experience at Hopkins (not at Kimmel, but cancer researchers are generally considered to be workaholics) was that students and postdoc routinely work well over 40hr/week. I think Kern's assessment is simply not to be trusted on this point.HopkinsAnonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-18158173390655180012010-10-03T11:25:06.892-04:002010-10-03T11:25:06.892-04:00Anonymous @9:07, 4:11, 4:10, 3:11
Well, at least ...Anonymous @9:07, 4:11, 4:10, 3:11<br /><br />Well, at least I'm passionate, but I'm lacking patience.<br /><br />The library thing, not to get side tracked, but that's a funny story. I go to the University library, and it so happens that some Universities require student/faculty ID to even enter. I asked them how I could remedy this, and they offered a library pass for 250 bucks for something like 4 months. Had I known how long I was going to be out of work, I would have just paid it. Still, that is a lot of money for literature access. I asked my former University for an online library pass, but no dice. The whole experience has made a believer of open publication, when at first I was completely indifferent.Jablonskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-83747992997538256032010-10-03T09:21:15.310-04:002010-10-03T09:21:15.310-04:00@Lavoisier "Anyway, I do believe that there i...@Lavoisier "Anyway, I do believe that there is WAY TOO MUCH whining about "how bad we have it as chemists in the US". Give me a break!"<br /> <br />"For me though, it's called PRIDE, and if that is a liability in the new economy, then so be it. "<br />anon October 2, 2010 9:07 AM <br /><br />I think Lavoisier has hit the nail on the head. There is WAY too much whining from chemists. There are opportunities out there, you just have to be open to them. PRIDE is a liability, and not just in bad economies. In good economies you may be able to get by with huge amounts of PRIDE but it will always slow you down. Question your pre-conceived notions about yourself. Question the pre-conceived notions about your field. If you do this you will be able to see the opportunities.HEFischernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-72672382402688615202010-10-03T01:13:59.548-04:002010-10-03T01:13:59.548-04:00@Anon 8:09 Oops, I was going by what PeptideChemis...@Anon 8:09 Oops, I was going by what PeptideChemist said. I think that s/he mixed up the Kern article from Pipeline with the postdoc saboteur article in Nature...now THAT's some f*cked up sh*t. (Ha, language loophole!)<br /><br />But seriously, being a synthetic chemist is stressful enough. We're already over-worked, under-appreciated, and overly reliant on an inbred field for socio-economic mobility. To add insult to injury, our craft is degenerating into a Third-World commodity! (PeptideChemist: "There are 10^87 electrons in the universe; fortunately there are 2.5 billion Chinese and Indians who can figure out how to put them into the right molecules.") We're already having problems with QC/QA at US manufacturing sites; can you imagine the oversight problems from Third World Pharma?<br /><br />Kern may be a bit creepy for spying on his department's researchers. As one of the previous Anons suggested, Kern should not overstep his bounds and chastise the lackeys of other PI's. If one is to lead by example, then the PI's should also show up on the weekends and nights. Hey, they should work for the mighty asterisk, right?<br /><br />Try to give Old Timer the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps s/he has witnessed extensive exploitation and mistreatment of MS chemists by parasitic PhD lab heads. Don't give her/him too much benefit though; s/he kinda sounds like a graduate from one of the "elite" organic programs.<br /><br />Bon soir, Lavoisier.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-8031418736117986092010-10-02T23:09:48.387-04:002010-10-02T23:09:48.387-04:00Gee, Lavoisier, thanks for busting me. Sorry for ...Gee, Lavoisier, thanks for busting me. Sorry for the language. I had wanted to say that to Scott Kern (note his article was NOT in Nature) but Old Timer had the requisite note of arrogance that rankles me so. <br /><br />"this MS chemist is worth 10 Ph.D.s"..."good thing we only pay him half as much as one"<br /><br />"that MS chemist is smarter than anyone we have on this floor." ... "so fire all of them and have him teach some Chinese how to do it. Yes, we'll fire him next year, don't worry."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-27474571666358854652010-10-02T22:58:14.192-04:002010-10-02T22:58:14.192-04:00@HEFischer: Overall I don't think that this th...@HEFischer: Overall I don't think that this thread seeks to deride MS chemists. Also, as PeptideChemist points out, the author in the Nature article gives an account of biomedical, not chemical, research activities at JHU. I think that most American synthetic chemists (including the inorganics) have no problems performing 40 hours of research, both at the bench and reading literature. As others have already mentioned, academic research should not be treated like a routine job. In grad school, lab time becomes protracted because of teaching obligations, instrument failures, unfamiliarity with techniques, and ubiquitous socializing. Upon entering industry, good organizational skills along with minimal distractions should allow most essential work to be done within 40 hours. <br /><br />Anyway, I do believe that there is WAY TOO MUCH whining about "how bad we have it as chemists in the US". Give me a break! We're not in Darfur or Myanmar! At least we can collect unemployment, which in New Jersey maxes out at $2500 gross per month (including the federal supplement). Plus, we can always live off our credit cards, which is not an option available to most people in the world.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I think that many PhD chemists take pride in their degrees rather than their research. They get a sense of entitlement which takes a beating in tough economic times. Hence they whine about how they "didn't go to X school and work for Y professor just to make Z amount of money." Academic and industrial organic chemistry is dominated by the intellectual progeny of ~20 extant professors who aren't inclined to welcome graduates from podunk institutions (no offense intended). I know this sounds callous, but I've found that hiring managers who worked for no-name or deceased professors are less exclusive and more open to hiring people based on talent and personality rather than pedigree.<br /><br />LavoisierAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-80424310150908292342010-10-02T20:42:59.423-04:002010-10-02T20:42:59.423-04:00@ PeptideChemist: "Yikes! H.E. Fischer, do yo...@ PeptideChemist: "Yikes! H.E. Fischer, do you have Chemjobber as an RSS Feed?"<br /><br />I'm normally never post. I just got a taken up in the debate, specifically about some anon. negative comments made about MS chemists. I agree with you--noone is forced into a PhD. Those who complain that noone told them that a MS was an option just do not want to deal with their own choices.HEFischernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-55548383180924917322010-10-02T20:35:43.896-04:002010-10-02T20:35:43.896-04:00Lavoisier, didn't see that when I posted.
A2...Lavoisier, didn't see that when I posted. <br /><br />A2:31p: Please keep it somewhat civil. Thanks.Chemjobberhttp://chemjobber.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-37180011566329585412010-10-02T20:22:03.398-04:002010-10-02T20:22:03.398-04:00"Anonymous said...
Here's a thought prob..."Anonymous said... <br />Here's a thought problem for you... would you rather recruit 10 PhDs who work about 50 hours a week, or 1 that works 80? That's 500 hours versus 80 hours of research activity. That is the 'old' way of looking at it and where did that get us? About 30-50% of the students aren't even from our country anymore. <br /><br />Oh, and fuck you. <br /><br />October 1, 2010 2:31 PM"<br /><br />Not exactly what I would call civil, eh Chemjobber? Anwyay, I can tell you that most professors would like 10 PhDs who work about 80 hours per week.<br /><br />Signed,<br />Antoine LavoisierAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-17838404108455185972010-10-02T19:55:27.194-04:002010-10-02T19:55:27.194-04:00Hi folks, PeptideChemist here.
Yikes! H.E. Fische...Hi folks, PeptideChemist here.<br /><br />Yikes! H.E. Fischer, do you have Chemjobber as an RSS Feed? Look at all those posts, you must be getting alerts every hour! Anyway, getting back to the thread topic, I don't think there can be a universal standard of time to be spent in a research lab. But, I do agree with Anon (10/2 @ 1:17 PM) that grad school and postdoc can't be treated as routine jobs. After all, in academic research is *not* supposed to be routine, especially when everyone is claiming to do cutting-edge research. <br /><br />Having read the original Nature article which has elicited so much debate here on Chemjobber as well as In the Pipeline, I agree with the author with respect to the work schedule of many molecular biologists, although I won't go so far as to question anyone's passion for research. As the now-defunct Tenderbutton once pointed out using a photo of a Stanford research building, chemists often work longer hours than the biologists. However, it wouldn't be fair to compare the quality of research between different disciplines. I understand that biologists have to wait for cells to grow, verify the purity of plasmids, and do other tasks that simply require unattended time.<br /><br />However, I don't think any research building should be completely idle during non-holiday weekends. Even though Johns Hopkins is a private university, it still receives a massive amount of public (i.e., taxpayer) money. When I was getting my PhD, I felt an obligation not only to myself but also to the public to do my best and work my ass off in the lab. Even though my research may, at best, have provided trivial benefit to society, I could sleep well (6 hours on average) knowing that I didn't utterly squander grant money.<br /><br />Despite all the bitching about how unfair the "academic-industrial complex" (BTW nice term, Anon @ 1:17) has treated its people, most of us have to admit that we weren't FORCED into the PhD track. Humans are exquisitely adept at making stupid decisions, so learn from your mistakes and adapt, even if you have to drop another $300,000 for the supplementary JD or MBA. (Besides, part of being American is embracing debt, right?)<br /><br />Some of the early posters on this thread have dismissed the value of working more since "we're not going to cure cancer soon anyway." Bear in mind that the original Nature article describes the nonstop research efforts to develop polio vaccines. Also, the greatest technological advances such as those of the Industrial Revolution were achieved with atrocious labor laws. Furthermore, post-WWII reconstruction made possible by nonstop toil. Finally, here's a joke that I recently heard at the lunch table: There are 10^87 electrons in the universe; fortunately there are 2.5 billion Chinese and Indians who can figure out how to put them into the right molecules.<br /><br />PeptideChemist signing off, y'all!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-43147592218608525382010-10-02T18:15:44.624-04:002010-10-02T18:15:44.624-04:00H.E. FISCHER aka "Anonymous"
OCTOBER 2, ...H.E. FISCHER aka "Anonymous"<br />OCTOBER 2, 2010 2:50 PM <br />OCTOBER 2, 2010 1:58 PM <br />OCTOBER 2, 2010 9:54 AM <br />OCTOBER 2, 2010 8:40 AM <br />OCTOBER 1, 2010 4:39 PMHEFischernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-42541018595221844532010-10-02T17:55:44.948-04:002010-10-02T17:55:44.948-04:00Hey, folks:
I'm so glad that you're all h...Hey, folks:<br /><br />I'm so glad that you're all here debating this issue (and doing so civilly). However, all the Anons are getting rather confusing, and it's difficult to follow who's talking to who. <br /><br />Can I suggest that you pick your favorite dead chemist's name as a pseudonym to be signed at the end of your comments?Chemjobberhttp://chemjobber.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-88731162150031889482010-10-02T17:50:51.207-04:002010-10-02T17:50:51.207-04:00Excuses, excuses. Got a university library nearby...Excuses, excuses. Got a university library nearby? There are other ways of keeping up on the literature than a work computer. Quit thinking about your prestige and hoping someone will hand you something on a golden platter. The only way that you will get opportunities is to get over yourself and go find them.<br /><br />I've seen at least one example of the stellar MS in action. That guy did not lie, did not complain about prestige. And yes he wiped the floor with other PhD leaders on his project. He simply concentrated on what he did best--science.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-77485148711048571232010-10-02T17:49:12.922-04:002010-10-02T17:49:12.922-04:00I know a ton of talented, hard-working Ph.D.s also...I know a ton of talented, hard-working Ph.D.s also currently unemployed, but that's not the subject of this thread. People can be upset about spending their 20s working hard in the lab, but the simple fact of life is that anyone who has been successful in his or her field also spent their 20s working their asses off! Whether it's acting, banking, law or starting a business. It's called BEING PASSIONATE!Old Timernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-69521216574255012092010-10-02T17:25:11.038-04:002010-10-02T17:25:11.038-04:00Yes I'm angry old timer, and as much I agree w...Yes I'm angry old timer, and as much I agree with your principles and ideals of merit, they just don't exist anymore. I would have rather spent my 20's making money and being passionate about my work instead of chasing this "prestige". Yet that is NOT how the Ph. D.s were marketed. Am I subpar chemist or Ph. D., maybe? maybe not. That doesn't mean that I simply disappear just so you can sleep better at night. But in the meantime, a man's got to eat and a man's got to live. And if you are willing to donate more money for even more excessive higher learning as an MBA or LD, be my guest. I'm not going into 300k of student loan debt just to get a job in the 40-50 k range (just how far are wages going to drop? and I'm already in my 30s)<br /><br />I've had it up to here with the old guard, and during my time of unemployment, I would have loved to harness my seething anger and start my own business and write proposals. However unemployment is often literature blind, and that turned into an obvious dead end.<br /><br />One more thought. How common is it for Ph. D.s lie about their credentials to get their foot in the door? That awesome M.S., do you think there is a slight chance he actually did get his Ph. D. in another life but lied to get the job just to pay the bills?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-2461677083151779042010-10-02T16:58:47.418-04:002010-10-02T16:58:47.418-04:00Hear hear Old Timer! :-) There are many talented ...Hear hear Old Timer! :-) There are many talented MS scientists (many who work more than 9-to-5). (Gasp! These "quitters" are doing good science?) Additionally, people need to just stop bitching and moaning about how it is not fair that there are no jobs in chemistry and be a little more open minded. <br /><br />When I was laid off by my former employer I did not have trouble finding a job. Others who I know who lost their jobs at the same time are having much harder times. The difference? Just a little creativity and an open mind. Is the economy closed for chemists? Definetly not! In the past year I have turned down four recruiters offering me interviews (out of the blue through unsolicited calls) since I am very happily employed at a good company doing what I love. Keep your eyes and your heart open and you will never be hurting for work in chemistry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-77824811126986532392010-10-02T16:37:49.466-04:002010-10-02T16:37:49.466-04:00I agree with anonymous. A lot of the problems we&...I agree with anonymous. A lot of the problems we're seeing now can be traced to large research groups with subpar students. These people should NOT be getting Ph.D.s! Attrition rates should be going way up with the number of talented undergraduates choosing professions other than chemistry (and rightly so). But departments are used to a certain number of matriculating students each year and complain about the low quality of the "current batch." Time to drop the numbers or increase attrition.Old Timernoreply@blogger.com