tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post1736595312279369044..comments2024-03-27T21:23:40.339-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: An open letter to recruitersChemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-58285641225244887562015-09-04T18:35:32.713-04:002015-09-04T18:35:32.713-04:00Some wander, others have an agenda.Some wander, others have an agenda.Generic Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-37157042014043903342015-09-04T11:41:55.640-04:002015-09-04T11:41:55.640-04:00Anon10:46AM: Your comments (the original one, etc....Anon10:46AM: Your comments (the original one, etc.) are appreciated by me - I know what you meant. And folks like to wander. Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-1639775227246773752015-09-04T10:46:29.949-04:002015-09-04T10:46:29.949-04:00Huh. Wow. As the OP of this comment train I certai...Huh. Wow. As the OP of this comment train I certainly didn't mean to spur all these off topic comments. I just mean, you know, I don't want a job that I did over a decade ago when I was a new BS chemist. A job I hated enough that I took my chances with academia. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-29042520846400032152015-09-03T23:25:22.802-04:002015-09-03T23:25:22.802-04:00Thanks but if I were employed, then I would have b...Thanks but if I were employed, then I would have better things to do :-)<br />Generic Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-70860553899711417342015-09-03T23:24:19.033-04:002015-09-03T23:24:19.033-04:00Hi NMH, well, yes I think we are both expressing t...Hi NMH, well, yes I think we are both expressing the same goal. One question which is implied is whether an ACS president can do so, or if the rules of the game need to be changed. For example, if all else fails, then an on-line petition might be needed. <br /><br />Generic Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-22802925410608013962015-09-03T15:29:36.562-04:002015-09-03T15:29:36.562-04:00I don't believe there is an implicit or stated...I don't believe there is an implicit or stated policy of ACS pubs, or schools, that will directly hurt current working chemists. However, because schools train far more chemists that are needed, that increases competition for jobs and makes current chemists less likely to stay in the field until retirement age, so functionally the policies of the schools training too many chemists and bringing in foreign chemists (who usually want to stay in the US) hurt the current US chemistry worker. My guess ACS pubs will support graduate education and so functionally, through this policy, they are at odds with the Chem worker as well.<br /><br />We need an organiztion president who will look out for the interests of the current chem worker, and can not be possibly influenced by the best interests of the schools or ACS pubs.NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-41797520053110798492015-09-03T15:28:37.177-04:002015-09-03T15:28:37.177-04:00If you start your own blog i for one will certainl...If you start your own blog i for one will certainly check it out! You're a lot more outspoken than most of the other bloggers out there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-84711589817361314282015-09-03T15:15:40.078-04:002015-09-03T15:15:40.078-04:00Some comments on psychology and semantics:
NMH wr...Some comments on psychology and semantics:<br /><br />NMH wrote "the ACS would support whatever the board of ACS publications wants". My question is therefore: WHO is the "ACS"? Is "the ACS" the ACS employees or is it the ACS members? I mean this as a real question, not a rhetorical one. Obviously, I believe that the organization should first represent the interests of its members, and the interests and opinions of the employees should be subordinate to those of the members. After that has been settled, we can quibble about how much "chemistry" should be promoted by the organization. The current employment crisis is relevant in that context, although of course the other factors which Dr. Balazs refers to (economic and policial factors) are also significant.<br /><br />On the subject of which data to collect, it is already no secret that specific geographical areas have greater density of employment opportunities than do others. That is why it is necessary to collect employment outcome data on the basis of individual departments. Not all research programs and topics are necessarily training students for the current job market. Faculty members could, conceivable argue that basic science would thereby be receiving a disservice. To that I would say (a) you are at an educational institution and (b) if you want to do basic science outside of that remit, then please burn the midnight oil and do it yourself (as I was forced to do so, on account of a highly unfavorable location from which to attract graduate students).<br /><br />Of course, the situation is not as simple as "us-versus-them", e.g., there are faculty who are concerned about what happens to their former graduates. However it's a matter of what their relative priorities are. Like it or not, at some point along the food chain, those interests and priorities will diverge. (I could write more, but it might diverge into a rant).<br /> <br />GCGeneric Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-26805305559331544432015-09-03T15:00:05.610-04:002015-09-03T15:00:05.610-04:00I'm not sure "I'm going to study the ...I'm not sure "I'm going to study the issue" is a (or three....) concrete step(s). I'm also unclear how improving the public's perception of science improves the job market for chemists, but that's probably just me.<br /><br />"would stand up for the working chemists versus the schools and ACS pubs, which now appear to be at odds with each other." ACS pubs are against working chemists? That seems implausible. I assume you think schools are against working chemists by continuing to do what they're supposed to do, i.e. train more chemists in an already tight job market? Academe's mission is to educate students and advance knowledge, not to ensure a well functioning job market.<br /><br /><br /><br />biotechtoreadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-30079369638779807142015-09-03T13:46:14.246-04:002015-09-03T13:46:14.246-04:00I don't intend to take sides, because I don...I don't intend to take sides, because I don't view this as an "Us versus Them" problem. My intention is to understand the issues and work towards a solution. If that approach isn't what the electorate wants, so be it, but I have to be true to myself.Bryan Balazs, Candidate for ACS Presidentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-24478324672179181632015-09-03T13:13:32.265-04:002015-09-03T13:13:32.265-04:00I imagine Yogi Berra might say: "There are pl...I imagine Yogi Berra might say: "There are plenty of easy solutions but they are difficult to do".<br /><br />For example, as GC pointed out: 1.) force schools to limit PhD production, and 2.) penalize schools who bring in foreign PhD's as post-docs, and I would add penalize schools who train immigrants in PhD programs.<br /><br />Of course no school in their right mind would willing agree to that as that would limit their supply of cheap labor, and if there was ever a hint that there could be laws to enforce this, watch academia hire lobbyists to the prevent laws.<br /><br />I strongly suspect that the ACS would support whatever the board of ACS publications wants, as that is where the money is. So if it hurts ACS pubs for schools to limit grad school training (fewer papers in their journals) then the ACS won't favor it. In the words of deep throat, "follow the money".<br /><br />A credible candidate for ACS president, IMO, would stand up for the working chemists versus the schools and ACS pubs, which now appear to be at odds with each other.NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-40966432428767427242015-09-03T12:31:25.109-04:002015-09-03T12:31:25.109-04:00Generic Chemist is correct when he says that one o...Generic Chemist is correct when he says that one of the first steps is to gather quantitative data. One of the issues is that very complex employment trends are often expressed through simplified (and thus often meaningless) sound bites. How many times have we heard, "There are not enough STEM graduates! No, wait, I mean, there are too many STEM graduates!!" The reality is that some areas of STEM are hiring, while other areas are stagnant or even decreasing. We (the ACS) need to quantify exactly what is happening for chemists at all degree levels, at all stages of their careers, and in all employment sectors (pharma vs academe vs energy vs government, etc.).<br /><br />Biotechreader asked a very valid question, namely for 3 concrete things that I would do. Here is where I would start:<br /><br />1. Quantify much more clearly exactly what the employment statistics are for chemists, as I alluded to above. We absolutely must base the conclusions on representative data from all sectors and for all chemists (not just ACS members, and not just satisfied ACS members who obligingly fill out a survey).<br /><br />2. Get to the bottom of the issue of why some employers tell us they can't find qualified candidates, when talented individuals spend months or years looking for a chemistry job with some ultimately giving up in desperation. As a side note to this, we also need to find out what is missing in the background of applicants who are not offered a job and determine if this is something that the ACS can help with.<br /><br />3. Undertake a comprehensive review of where the chemistry employment opportunities are now, and where they are projected to be in 5 years and in 10 years. This review would encompass all degree levels and across all possible sectors that hire chemists.<br /><br />Biotechreader also asked what I meant by "cultural", and the answer is that I used this term to capture a number of issues: the public perception of science, the rapid dissemination of online "stuff" (not necessarily knowledge let alone understanding and let's not even discuss wisdom), our nation's ability to clearly understand the value of science to our well being, the increasing cost of higher education, etc.<br /><br />I am not going to promise you that there is one quick, easy solution. If there were, we would have implemented it by now. The issues are complex, but we must understand them and start to address them. I welcome your thoughts, and let's work on this together.Bryan Balazs, Candidate for ACS Presidentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-26848687385859793692015-09-03T01:19:57.848-04:002015-09-03T01:19:57.848-04:00Hi biotechtoreador,
Your point is well taken abou...Hi biotechtoreador,<br /><br />Your point is well taken about Dr. Balazs needing to offer concrete steps. But in order to do so, he/we will need a basis upon which to make such recommendations. In other words, they should be well-informed decisions, backed up by data. <br /><br />In that context, the first step would be to get quantitative data on what happens to BSc, MSc and PhD chemists after they graduate. That data should be according to each individual, degree-granting domestic chemistry program. The fact that departmental websites will not infrequently brag when one of their graduates has a prestigious career outcome demonstrates that they are, in principle technically capable of quantitatively keeping track of career outcomes. It may be necessary to shout a little in order to get the ACS to commit the (minor) resources required to tabulate that data.<br /><br />Having such data would consequently allow logical decisions to be made. Maybe along the lines which I have already illustrated.<br /><br />When that point arises, then it will be interesting to see how the ...senior ACS employees... will react. Several scenarios come to mind, for example:<br />a. they concede to the will of the elected representative of the ACS members (hopefully),<br />b. they pretend that the entire matter is out of their control and outside of the remit of the ACS (cynically congruent with previous examples of their unwillingness to step up to the plate) or<br />c. they propose their own "advisory committee", likely composed of one-sided stake-holders, i.e. faculty members (i.e. a smokescreen).<br /><br />In the meanwhile, it is encouraging that at least one candidate has responded here. That is more than Professor Nelson appears willing to do.<br />Generic Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-49928784814133680492015-09-03T01:18:04.004-04:002015-09-03T01:18:04.004-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Generic Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-41983819478927104772015-09-02T22:47:36.782-04:002015-09-02T22:47:36.782-04:00" in 2013 more of the income is from two work..." in 2013 more of the income is from two workers instead of one, compared to 1984"<br /><br />A fair point. Female participation in the labor force in 1984 was 54%, which increased to 57% in 2013: taking that into account, real household incomes have risen by more than female participation, though not by a huge amount. I don't know what trends in # of wage earners/household have been.<br /><br />"My boss makes 5-6 x what I make". That's nothing. Compare what a mid/lower level functionary at a bank makes compared to the executives....you're at least within a few orders of magnitude. The workaday world ain't a meritocracy: never has been, never will be.biotechtoreadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-63321189058773247662015-09-02T22:38:08.814-04:002015-09-02T22:38:08.814-04:00"A number of trends have been building over t..."A number of trends have been building over the years - demographic, economic, employment, cultural, global - and the present dire employment situation is the result."<br /><br />I get that employment trends have caused a dire employment situation but, specifically, how have cultural trends been responsible for chemistry employment?<br /><br />I'm glad to hear that you "do not view the position of ACS President as merely a figurehead". Without using the terms/concepts 'engage', 'seek input from', or 'build a consensus among' would you please provide three concrete steps you would take as ACS president that you think could improve employment among chemists? biotechtoreadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-63303174428771810892015-09-02T21:14:45.982-04:002015-09-02T21:14:45.982-04:00I'm glad to read that you are taking the task ...I'm glad to read that you are taking the task seriously. Speaking as a scientist, gathering data is always a good place to start. <br /><br />Through the grapevine, my information is that while Professor Nelson is having some sort of private discussion about the plight of unemployed B.Sc. chemists, she has not (yet?) touched the situation for PhD chemists.Generic Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-85248250080242110402015-09-02T18:55:20.897-04:002015-09-02T18:55:20.897-04:00Believe me, I am carefully considering all of your...Believe me, I am carefully considering all of your suggestions whether through this blog or via email or phone calls, and it is my intention to lead the ACS to taking long-term action in this area. A number of trends have been building over the years - demographic, economic, employment, cultural, global - and the present dire employment situation is the result. I do not intend to point fingers and assign blame, but rather to get the data, fully understand the situation, and start taking some action. I do not view the position of ACS President as merely a figurehead, but rather as the leading individual who works on behalf of all of our members. Anything less is unacceptable for a membership society.Bryan Balazs, Candidate for ACS Presidentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-34571233705151342432015-09-02T17:39:51.120-04:002015-09-02T17:39:51.120-04:00Tenure is a complicated issue, for which serious, ...Tenure is a complicated issue, for which serious, well-thought comments are needed (as opposed to anonymous, off-the-cuff ones via a blog). <br /><br />As many of us will recognize, a guarantee of continuation of employment is necessary in order to manage grants and research groups. On the other hand what to do about the dead weight, who has given up applying for grants? What to do about the insiderism, which shields academic 5th wheels from being replaced by those who are more ambitious?<br /><br />Of course, this is not my blog :-) but reading some self-consistent policy ideas on this topic would be very welcome.Generic Chemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368825556427261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-5712612984678138632015-09-02T17:22:00.177-04:002015-09-02T17:22:00.177-04:00Forget the "well maybe". I was going to ...Forget the "well maybe". I was going to make some comment about being flogged by ISIS clowns but decided not to.NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-63836450471268143962015-09-02T17:14:18.291-04:002015-09-02T17:14:18.291-04:00Household income cannot support your hypothesis, i...Household income cannot support your hypothesis, in light of the fact that in 2013 more of the income is from two workers instead of one, compared to 1984, so I'd say its a slight gain for middle class family income at the expense of a lot more stress (do women really want to work as their raising children, or do they HAVE to work?). Everybody knows in this country that the top 1/5th in income have done far better in terms of income increase in the past 30 years compared to everybody else. In fact the lower 1/5th are worse off. <br /><br />This wealth disparity reflects what is seen in academic institutions where tenured faculty rack of high salaries and continuous employment while everybody else doing the experiments is paid garbage. At my school, the former president propose a 5% increase in salary for faculty compared to 2.5% for staff. Academia is a perfect reflection of what is going on elsewhere, the rich get richer by having greater pay and benefits then the staff. And usually the work less to boot.<br /><br />My boss makes 5-6 x what I make. Does he work 5-6 x harder? No. Is he 5 -6x smarter? No. He certainly is smarter than me, but is the edge he has on me here really worth that he, and the academic plutocrats, being paid absurdly more income, even in the name of "training" the lower paid contingent ("training" is a laughable concept, because you really teach yourself how to do experiments because your advisor is too busy)? <br /><br />I think not.<br /><br />Well, maybe NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-52852170285398890522015-09-02T16:37:12.441-04:002015-09-02T16:37:12.441-04:00Some interesting and potentially useful ideas. I&...Some interesting and potentially useful ideas. I'm not sure how any of them have any bearing on tenure, though.biotechtoreadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-41870020464102876992015-09-02T16:27:47.442-04:002015-09-02T16:27:47.442-04:00"Has any employment system improved the lot o..."Has any employment system improved the lot of workers in the past forty years or so?"<br /><br />How about the US economy, my friend?<br /><br />Yes, yes, maybe an unpopular view but I think it's true. Real household income in the US has increased from $48K in 1984 to $52 k in 2013 (https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MEHOINUSA672N, that was broadest range I could quickly find while avoiding doing the actual work I get paid for) and the # of households has increased from 85 million to 125 million (http://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/): that's a lot more people making, well, not a ton more money but at least some more. Also, life expectancy is up from 72 in 1974 to 79 in 2015. So, yea, I think the US is doing pretty well. There's a reason tens of millions of people want to immigrate here...<br /><br />I don't know that life today is really any better than it was 40 years ago (maybe it isn't), but we have much better stuff, fewer hostile nations that want to kill us (though that # is creeping up), and some diseases that were fatal are now chronic or curable (HIV, HCV). <br />biotechtoreadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-3289728422741646132015-09-02T16:26:58.646-04:002015-09-02T16:26:58.646-04:00The problem is mostly with lousy employers, who us...The problem is mostly with lousy employers, who use staffing agencies, but lousy staffing agencies add to the problem, i.e. by spamming job boards with multiple postings, with postings to irrelevant jobs and with postings to jobs that were already filled month ago. Everyone looking for a job in the 2009-13 period was already pretty squeezed, without having to deal with the agency-related crap, so it is hard to have charitable feelings about companies like Kelly or Yoh Services. There must be few decent recruiters somewhere, but even if they exist there is a problem of them not quite understanding biotech research specialities to which they are hiring people, and the general nature of biotech (I remember a long discussion with one agent, about one particular startup that no longer exists, she was pitching me a job with this company and I tried to explain to her why I thought it was not a good company to work for, because the founders were demonstrably sci-fi loving crackpots).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-7695138811586209962015-09-02T16:18:39.630-04:002015-09-02T16:18:39.630-04:00Citing Nobel awards as a measure of success seems ...Citing Nobel awards as a measure of success seems odd. <br /><br />It is similar to Hollywood in that a small number of people get near-infinite rewards (including prizes). And while those go-getters would probably be successful in any field, the current system has a risk-reward structure that front-loads everything in an unhealthy manner, then cost of post-failure so low that it can be a drain on the system.<br /><br />Now that most jobs are not lifetime appointments tenure, much like civil service of old, looks attractive to people seeking stability. There must be a better way of spreading it around, though, than amongst a self-selecting clique of Ivy League a-holes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com