tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post668187199197351640..comments2024-03-27T21:23:40.339-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: Is graduate school in chemistry bad for your mental health? Part 3Chemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-24086010364028582532017-12-19T07:38:56.212-05:002017-12-19T07:38:56.212-05:00You know your projects stand out of the herd. Ther...You know your projects stand out of the herd. There is something special about them. It seems to me all of them are really brilliant!<br /><a href="https://gymconsulting.com/best-workout-pills-bodybuilding-supplements-reviews" rel="nofollow">build muscle mass</a><br />ukahsah15https://www.blogger.com/profile/15882717272995410559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-69150737216507863142015-06-04T04:36:58.713-04:002015-06-04T04:36:58.713-04:00it was a wonderful chance to visit this kind of si...it was a wonderful chance to visit this kind of site and I am happy to know. thank you so much for giving us a chance to have this opportunity..<br /><a href="http://damdaar.com/health-news/" rel="nofollow">health news</a><br />swaggyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01783156947281847959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-4464810076213532852013-04-25T16:21:48.633-04:002013-04-25T16:21:48.633-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02271751159893900498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-67705101779530848572013-01-25T09:32:37.434-05:002013-01-25T09:32:37.434-05:00Same story. I've been out of the lab for nearl...Same story. I've been out of the lab for nearly 2 years now and I've only started this week looking into chem blogs again. Glad I found these posts. <br />I couldn't handle the lab/research anymore. It took me nearly one full year after graduating only to "rebuild" myself. I had no interest in chemistry anymore, no motivation, no self-esteem after a very difficult project (3 years on a synthesis, no publication). I would get anxious thinking about looking for a job. I was lucky to have a S.O. who had a stable income and supported my time off after graduating.<br />I was finally diagnosed with a burnout and a depression. It all makes sense now. <br /><br />You cannot "not care". It's just killing a part of you inside. My advice would be to get out of there as soon as possible. Surround yourself with non-scientific friends, do activities outside the lab and refocus on yourself. It'll slowly get better after it's over.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-29501486809927947652013-01-21T04:17:47.744-05:002013-01-21T04:17:47.744-05:00Truly awesome post! It is really very interesting ...Truly awesome post! It is really very interesting and informative. Keep more updates.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br /><i><a href="http://www.indiantravelconsultant.com/kumbh-mela-tour.html" rel="nofollow">Kumbh Mela Festival</a> | <a href="http://www.indiantravelconsultant.com/" rel="nofollow">Vacation Deals</a></i><br />Indian Travelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06684253669582582729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-25234340362594409782013-01-15T10:14:04.887-05:002013-01-15T10:14:04.887-05:00Loved the reference to Rhodes's book which I h...Loved the reference to Rhodes's book which I have read several times. The scientists were not just willing but strongly encouraged to engage in these activities, otherwise the intense pressure would have driven them crazy. A great example.Wavefunctionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14993805391653267639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-31687813237475445402013-01-11T10:50:25.128-05:002013-01-11T10:50:25.128-05:00Individual responsibility comes with individual re...Individual responsibility comes with individual reward. And I see a lot of PIs keep getting 'Promising scholar' awards and good enough paychecks while their trainees are underemployed and the vast majority are not doing research for a living ten years after degree. Guarantee a good enough reward ten years out, and people will take individual responsibility for their choices to go to grad school. That's how human psychology works even if it seems unfair. The best PIs can do is suck up the internet abuse they deserve. They should be used to it from reading reviews on their articles and grants.<br /><br />It's not like you're going to get fired or something by reading words on the Internet. Plus, this isn't that Clockwork Orange scene where they strap you in a chair, and peel back your eyelids while playing Beethoven's 9th as background music. Most older PIs (like Noyori) just ignore blogs and think it's for stupid kids and bad gossip.<br /><br />Damn, if I was a PI and playing the game, I'd read this blog and agree with all of it, then go to the lab, tell the first year to work harder and tell the postdoc I want to see him in my office in two hours without specifying (I can imagine now the sucker running those NMRs up to the last minute...) I would be damn good.uncle samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-84662073871022302772013-01-10T18:54:58.824-05:002013-01-10T18:54:58.824-05:00Lyle you can classify me as a believer that MBAs l...Lyle you can classify me as a believer that MBAs largely damaged Pharma as I am old enough to have worked when Science/Medicine was the primary motivator and not mostly profit. There are a host of others who contributed negatively as well, not the least of being R&D types who wanted to behave like academics rather than having more concrete objective to produce materials that could be sold.<br /><br />More related to the main thread and theme while I think grad school can be rough on people, in cases intentionally so, I do agree it can exacerbate underlying issues a person may have just like any stressful situation. A bad/uninvolved/overly-dominating PI, obnoxious lab-mates, low-pay, lack of outlets or support plus many other factors mentioned can make it worse in most people. Just like MBAs I see PI as a main source of problem even though I actually would not classify a majority of PI as too terrible however am frustrated that more than a few seem to feel they had to endure themselves certain hard or non-optimal approaches so implement same tactics with there students. Chiefly, just like CEO, PIs are responsible for the culture and not everyone may thrive in what is established around them.<br /><br />My answer to to topic is Chemistry Grad school is probably largely bad for one's mental health, mostly short-term at the time one is in it. However there are mechanisms to deal with (hopeful appropriate) and in the end I think most people gain a sense of pride and confidence in achievement to take forward so could be a net benefit long-term. Sometimes the more intense the hardship have to survive the larger impact it will have.<br />CMCguyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-71030365076642123992013-01-10T17:54:44.711-05:002013-01-10T17:54:44.711-05:00Same story here (in the UK), I know what you mean....Same story here (in the UK), I know what you mean. I have to stop caring to get any work done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-90433391341579798232013-01-10T13:55:53.015-05:002013-01-10T13:55:53.015-05:00No apology needed. My feelings, as they are, are b...No apology needed. My feelings, as they are, are bemusement (literal meaning) and self-checking. I understand that your comments are not pointed at ME, but 1) definitely at other commenters and 2) the words of the blog itself, which, 90% of the time are my own words. <br /><br />You have interesting points, Lyle, so I sincerely hope that you keep commenting. As I have said, I value contrary opinions, especially on these issues. Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-26562595401939996632013-01-10T13:48:43.603-05:002013-01-10T13:48:43.603-05:00Sorry I hurt your feelings, CJ. My comment, as I ...Sorry I hurt your feelings, CJ. My comment, as I clarified them, were not directed at YOU, but rather the website and the comments found within. Lyle Langleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-38973562831223867462013-01-10T13:42:21.762-05:002013-01-10T13:42:21.762-05:00Perhaps he should have said "that's a fac...Perhaps he should have said "that's a fact." Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-68353023309007285652013-01-10T13:12:43.007-05:002013-01-10T13:12:43.007-05:00Yep, the internet strikes again. Thanks Anon:1:06...Yep, the internet strikes again. Thanks Anon:1:06 for making my point. "It's true" because I say so on the internet.Lyle Langleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-30327220431015385242013-01-10T13:07:29.090-05:002013-01-10T13:07:29.090-05:00Langley: "Dr. Lowe's website continually ...Langley: "Dr. Lowe's website continually fosters the MBA's destroyed Pharma thought process"<br /><br />Here's a reason why it does that.<br /><br />Because it's true. <br /><br />Similarly, not all PIs are bad but there's no doubt that we are perpetuating an unhealthy culture of student exploitation in academia. What we need to talk about is the average, not the outliers.Anon:1:06http://www.google.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-86308851102979494072013-01-10T11:28:43.391-05:002013-01-10T11:28:43.391-05:00Chemjobber, no need for a defensive position. Not...Chemjobber, no need for a defensive position. Note, I did not say you believe these things, just the website fosters this - that's a fact. No different than Dr. Lowe's website continually fosters the MBA's destroyed Pharma thought process. But, to #2 - where is the individual responsibility in all of this? One doesn't have to go to graduate school. Lyle Langleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-72974908791711754062013-01-10T10:58:33.596-05:002013-01-10T10:58:33.596-05:00Lyle, I think you might be generalizing there. Thi...Lyle, I think you might be generalizing there. Things I do not believe:<br /><br />1. All PIs are bad. <br />2. Graduate schools are at fault for having too many Ph.D.'s (they are part of the problem, not the sole cause). <br /><br />[And, I might note, the ACS Presidential Commission believes that graduate schools are producing too many Ph.D.s? Where are your your disagreements with Overman, Breslow et al?] <br /><br />Again, I plan to address your points today or tomorrow, potentially in a separate post. Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-53201335104827924142013-01-10T10:58:09.406-05:002013-01-10T10:58:09.406-05:00I'm completely on the other side of things now...I'm completely on the other side of things now as a manager and administrator. But one of the things I wished I had learned and focused on as a grad student was networking. So much of what benefits everyone looking for a job AND working in the field is establishing good, solid personal relationships. In addition those relationships reduce the feelings of isolation and establish a network for assisting when problems arise. My PI certainly could have helped with this by encouraging me to go to more meetings (local and national) and emphasizing social interaction. But in the end it was my cluelessness. Social skills can be learned with practice and I should have been working on that. Of course NOW I am. But I'm making up for lost time. <br /><br />Would I do it again? Yup. But I would approach it differently. A PhD is necessary for this job, which I enjoy. With just the BS I'd be stuck as a tech, and I really didn't enjoy that job at all. Grad school also gave me more insight into how science is done. You pay more attention when it's your own project and not "just a job". Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-12881759823458828992013-01-10T10:55:26.803-05:002013-01-10T10:55:26.803-05:00Taking a break from some other writing, and my eye...Taking a break from some other writing, and my eyes got cross eyed. expectations, not exceptions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-7240628471960426332013-01-10T10:42:59.199-05:002013-01-10T10:42:59.199-05:00Sorry Chemjobber, take off the rose-colored glasse...Sorry Chemjobber, take off the rose-colored glasses. Yours is not the only website that falls into this, but whenever there is talk about graduate school, this dissolves into how bad all PI's are and how they didn't "help" everyone. Or how it's the graduate schools fault for having too many Ph.D.'s, etc. If you don't see it, you're not looking.<br /><br />And Anon, it's Lyle, not Kyle - honest mistake.Lyle Langleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-63532346083147934732013-01-10T09:44:35.870-05:002013-01-10T09:44:35.870-05:00Actually, I find myself almost agreeing with Kyle ...Actually, I find myself almost agreeing with Kyle on this one (Gasp). <br /><br />Look, If you got your Ph. D. in 2005 or earlier. The buyer beware argument doesn't exactly fly in many circumstances. I think a lot of PIs used youthful exuberance, idealism, and misleading exceptions to get away with a lot of abuse. (I hate the way you said "working hard" I've heard that many a time and found it be a good a moving target as any, cringe) Yet thanks to the internet, this comment thread, there is so much information out there, and so much MTV grad school real world, people are totally making informed conscious decisions to find the right group, the right project, or to even go to grad school at all! This could be a good sign that the era of smoke and mirrors is over!<br /><br />I do like how you lend legitimacy to mental illness, many PIs, and many parts of the US do not or have not given legitimacy to mental illness. I also was fortunate enough to go to a school that did value (and pay) for mental health, and thus I was able to come out, relatively unscathed, with only minor and controlled alcohol abuse. For that I am so grateful!<br /><br />In hindsight, with age and maturity, yes I was predisposed to depression. Did I have a clue what that meant when I was 22? no. I especially did not have a clue what that meant when I listened to my professors talk so idyllically about grad school and wrote me glorious letters of rec, assuming my enthusiasm for both life and science would guide me through the bullying, hazing, shaming, and politics that often becomes grad school.<br /><br />That's the other thing. My PI, was ... ok. He wasn't awesome, but he was ok, he genuinely cared about the well being of students even if he was a bit of a nebulous hard ass who fumbled every so often. There are so many things in grad school that lead to depression, in my case it was loneliness. Even super PI cannot cure loneliness, nor did I expect him to. That's just crazy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-18324674273981766212013-01-10T08:32:17.050-05:002013-01-10T08:32:17.050-05:00"Unfortunately, this website caters to the ba..."Unfortunately, this website caters to the bashing of the educational system and PI's in general. Again, the NJ mentality - I'm loudest therefore I'm right."<br /><br />Um, what?<br /><br />Lyle, in all sincerity, I really value your perspective, and please, please keep commenting here. However, I find that comment really off-base. Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-10875393911569300862013-01-10T08:24:37.298-05:002013-01-10T08:24:37.298-05:00Anon, 5:05PM:
Unfortunately, your last couple of ...Anon, 5:05PM:<br /><br />Unfortunately, your last couple of sentences are trying to make every situation fit every person and that is just not the way the world works. Can you love chemistry and work your own hours and love everyone and everything? Sure, just pick the right group for you. Can you go to any lab you want and work the hours you want? Sorry, no. Do some research and don't pick the one where the advisor expects more out of the student than the student does out of the advisor. But you're not talking about mental health like some of the others are on here. You're talking about feeling good, where others are really having serious mental health issues - suicidal ideation, serious depression, etc. - that is not what your referring to. Everyone gets down in graduate school and has a hard time at one point or another - if not, you're probably not really doing research that matters or is that novel.<br /><br />When I'm talking about "predisposed" people I'm talking about those that really have an issue in graduate school and rather than "blame" the PI I was simply wondering if this would happen under any stressful situation. Hence, a change of topic from "Is graduate school in chemistry bad for your mental health?" to "Is any stressful job bad for your mental health?". Unfortunately, this website caters to the bashing of the educational system and PI's in general - again, the NJ mentality - I'm loudest therefore I'm right. It's the internet, I get it, but not all problems in a graduate students life is PI driven. It's goes back to two students go through the same situation and have very different outcomes - whose to blame (again, I use blame not as a derogatory word), individuals or PI's. Not to make fun, but kind of like saying I got drunk on scotch and water one day and whiskey and water the next, so the water made me drunk.Lyle Langleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-46294370820157602872013-01-10T04:15:09.062-05:002013-01-10T04:15:09.062-05:00eh? are you inferring that 'international'...eh? are you inferring that 'international' PhDs do not measure up to a US PhD?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-67540237249119608842013-01-09T23:35:13.523-05:002013-01-09T23:35:13.523-05:00Was it worth it? I think grad school gave me a lot...Was it worth it? I think grad school gave me a lot of good things - I saw a lot of neat things and smart people, learned a lot of chemistry, and made friends. I think some of what I learned about myself was not positive, but it had to be learned. I wouldn't want to go through grad school again, but if I had to choose to go or not go, I probably would go anyway - chemistry is still what I love, and I would have had to find out where I stood with it. I might have done things differently (make a resume earlier, spend a year of two working after undergrad, save money, go back to school), but grad school still was a useful experience.Hapnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-80003407004911004762013-01-09T23:27:52.640-05:002013-01-09T23:27:52.640-05:00I think that the graduate education system is not ...I think that the graduate education system is not designed to put value on student sanity. Where I went, there was little in the way of a formal way of getting into groups. A thesis "committee" was a misnomer - you more or less graduated when your advisor said so (committees didn't exist very long before graduation). There were set standards for cumes and classes and not much else. <br /><br />I am cynical enough to assume that this order is so because professors and universities prefer it so. Professors had lots of freedom to do as they wished, which allowed them to (mostly) succeed or fail on their own, and the university profited or lost accordingly. The lack of support system and the isolation it brought means that one was left to one's own devices, of which the second biggest was one's advisor. (Sort of like a cult, or an abusive relationship, in the worst case, or having a domineering but loving parent, in the best). Having your advisor have total control over your future (the product of eight to ten years of work, in most cases) seems like a temptation to evil, and one at least some people needed no prompting to succumb to.<br /><br />Where I went had some means of help, for which I was grateful. It could have been much worse for students where I was, and my advisor and group were (while imperfect) pretty supportive, but I believe that the lack of set rules and total advisor control made the overall environment more hostile than it needed to be. My failures (self-absorption, didn't work hard enough, didn't have a clue what grad school would be like, other issues) were determinant, but I think the environment amplified problems (mine and others'). <br /><br />At least some of the isolation in grad school could be remedied. The department had parties in the summer, which helped, but having more interactions between students and groups, and having secondary advisors (committees) with some power could help. (This seems to be a particular problem in cases of fraud - Sames/Sezen, in particular.) That no remedies are used indicates that grad student sanity probably isn't important, in the same way that the lack of real safety training and enforcement (while placing the blame and onus for safety on students) says that safety is really not a matter of importance for (most) professors or universities. A catch in the argument is if the isolation and stress levels are necessary to separate different levels of chemists and to isolate (figuratively) the best ones. Can it be seen as like SEAL/Delta Force training, where the point is to deliver the best candidates, and other considerations (your well-being, in particular) are secondary? <br /><br />Another inherent problem is the large difference between grad school and undergrad. In undergrad, the parameters of your mission are clear - you know what you need to know and know that it is known. The rules are encoded in massive detail. Research experience is helpful, but your life or degree doesn't depend on it. In grad school, on the other hand, the rules are unwritten for the most part, both scientifically (finding knowledge is a whole lot different than learning it when known) and socially (who should I work for? how can I get them to want me? what is expected of me? what do I have to do to leave?). The information asymmetry is, I assume, intentional, but considering the type of people who are likely to want science as a career, etc., the lack of information is almost certain to bring problems. While the scientific part of growing up can't be mitigated without losing its essence and point, the social system - how it is organized and run, what the rules are - could be.<br /><br />I guess the TL/DR version of my comment is that while people bear a lot of the blame for their own unhappiness, the isolation, information asymmetry, and lack of rules in grad school amplify the problems inherent to a graduate education and make individual unhappiness easier to achieve, harder to abolish, and sometimes more costly for everyone involved.Hapnoreply@blogger.com