tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post7002918071865538383..comments2024-03-27T21:23:40.339-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: Beginning the Endgame: a midcareer chemist's musingsChemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-62488979563359821852015-04-27T11:01:10.599-04:002015-04-27T11:01:10.599-04:00You will find good chemists who are willing to wor...You will find good chemists who are willing to work in the "older American" pool. I know as I am one of them. These are people who need the money and enjoy the work in chemistry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-84347319653382682992013-03-29T18:00:36.909-04:002013-03-29T18:00:36.909-04:00I was in your PhD shoes at age = 43, out of a job,...I was in your PhD shoes at age = 43, out of a job, with a mortgage, two young daughters with a third on the way. I got no respect for the breadth and depth of experience and worse, no interviews. I just turned 70 and in the 27 intervening years have worked for one company, making use of every bit of chemistry I had learned and learning new areas far-removed from my synthetic organic background. I did the same sort of mental calculus--"gee, I got a long way to go"--and became a contractor to the US Government. Yes, it has its downsides and it does require me to be agile and willing to say "I can do that" even though, say, my knowledge of analytical chemistry was circa 1965-1980, and my knowledge of materials science was minuscule. I have steady work and new contracts where I'm specified as 'key personnel.' My academic and chemical manufacturing experience provided me with the tools to learn anything. This isn't exactly the best time to enter this sector but we seem to be at a point in time where nothing is the "best". As some raders, above, have commented, there are plenty of industry sectors where an ability to explain technology is critical, so I'd start thinking outside the box and put a plan together to cover the next 20 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-90161249545467358552013-03-29T11:01:10.559-04:002013-03-29T11:01:10.559-04:00The OC variable, or course, seems tough to quantif...The OC variable, or course, seems tough to quantify. For me, I would add H - P<br /><br />Where H = happiness (no idea what units are)<br />and P = psychiatrist/rehab bills from sending years doing a career you hatebboooooyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-49437714962979238312013-03-29T10:11:38.594-04:002013-03-29T10:11:38.594-04:00Depends on where in GOV. NIH and DOE both have ch...Depends on where in GOV. NIH and DOE both have chemistry labs with a tenure track type of system very similar to academia. The problem is that they'll want to bring lab assistants or staff scientists in at GS-7 or 9. A PhD is supposed to bring someone in at GS-11...in theory. In the current economy and with the sequester, not so much. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-33793282189259335862013-03-29T09:49:15.365-04:002013-03-29T09:49:15.365-04:00I've started taking industrial hygiene/hazardo...I've started taking industrial hygiene/hazardous waste type classes, you'd be surprised how many related industries need these skills. Only takes a few classes at a community college for initial certifications, hopefully that gets one in the door and then additional training may come from the employer. <br /><br />Trades are an excellent new direction for anyone educated. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-22956094255796590232013-03-29T09:29:36.428-04:002013-03-29T09:29:36.428-04:00One of the things Im wondering if there are some c...One of the things Im wondering if there are some chemists out there that because they can no longer find a job in their field and because of just the saturation of all the professions, are re-training in vocations like plumbing and HVAC for example. To me this seems like a good idea.NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-70050037678393780132013-03-29T09:11:43.411-04:002013-03-29T09:11:43.411-04:00Thanks for publishing this. Another great voice i...Thanks for publishing this. Another great voice is heard because of your efforts. What strikes me about the comments is the fear and insecurity represented by the all the anonymity.<br /><br />I am this age, but employed. However, I've tired of chemistry and am certain I could no longer find a job as a chemist if I wanted one - I've looked forever. But, I'm turning to near minimum wage pursuits and hoping that my education enables me to rise to a livable wage in several years. One of the perks of grad school is knowing how to live lean. Here goes ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-86984542280265136552013-03-29T09:02:55.404-04:002013-03-29T09:02:55.404-04:00I have some sympathy for the writer but not an ext...I have some sympathy for the writer but not an extreme amount. He was lucky enough to be smart and skilled enough to go to top programs and get a good position. Some of are not born with that kind of luck, or make career mistakes that seem like good decisions at the time. There are chemists/biologists who have put as much into the system as he has and are much worse off then he is.<br /><br />Some of us PhD's will probably lose our job in science in our early 50's and the only thing we may get a job in is teaching high school science, if we are lucky. NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-52342495424843031572013-03-29T02:46:53.407-04:002013-03-29T02:46:53.407-04:00Just a few questions from a small employer's p...Just a few questions from a small employer's perspective:<br />1: Where do I find guys like this to hire?<br /><br />2. How much do they cost a month?<br /><br />Being a small business, cash strapped and under-banked, based outside the US and with options, my choices are between young Indian chemists or older American ones. I'd just like to explore my options. With Indians I found one person out of 100 is decent and takes the application process seriously. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-20936764973069707272013-03-29T02:40:40.663-04:002013-03-29T02:40:40.663-04:00This is so true. I graduated with Bachelor's i...This is so true. I graduated with Bachelor's in Chem in 2007, got a contract position with Sanofi a few months later, then in 2009 they cut all contractors. I started my Masters, was unemployed for 8 months and just took graduate classes, then got another contract position with a CRO. While there my old department at Sanofi got cut from the original headcount of 49 people to 5 people. I was asked to come back as a contractor but ultimately Sanofi shut down the entire site and laid off about 99% of the employees. Don't know if I should try to switch careers as the future of a chemist seems uncertain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-47610387942277934282013-03-28T23:14:02.238-04:002013-03-28T23:14:02.238-04:00Rough cost benefit analysis for a chemistry studen...Rough cost benefit analysis for a chemistry student. Expected benefit of training = Y * S * X - (T + OC)<br /><br />Y = # years of expected employment <br />S = (salary + benefits) <br />X = % chance of obtaining employment<br />T = tuition<br />OC = opportunity cost of obtaining education / training. <br /><br />Have any of those 5 variables improved for chemists over the past 10 years? Would we expect them to improve over the coming 10? Jameshttp://masterorganicchemistry.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-71730987787684949032013-03-28T20:11:22.905-04:002013-03-28T20:11:22.905-04:00I am 57 now. I lost my job back in 2009 (I was a s...I am 57 now. I lost my job back in 2009 (I was a small pharma R&D manager- though close to the lab) . Despite what i thought was a decent resume , I was out of work for a year and half. ( Being out of work that long really put a dent in my savings to say the least!)<br /><br />The job I found is not at the level i was at (going back to the bench was not easy to adjust to) and does not feel secure for several reasons... I have STRONG doubts that it will last until anywhere near close enough to retirement (which financially needs to be at 70).<br /><br />That scares me quite a bit as I know if (when) it goes away, the likelihood of getting another decent paying professional job is slim. Both age and the times make that seem inevitable. I don't see I have a whole lot of options.<br /><br />I used to sleep well at night, but that is now a thing of the past.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-33555234650597122312013-03-28T19:28:32.471-04:002013-03-28T19:28:32.471-04:00I think this essay and comments are ignoring one f...I think this essay and comments are ignoring one factor. The very awful economy. New graduates are not getting jobs. Slightly experienced people are not getting jobs. Just because someone could get every job they applied to in the golden age of chemistry does not mean that there are jobs to be had now.<br /><br />It not your age, there is no demand for chemists. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-12008247109029200512013-03-28T15:48:27.586-04:002013-03-28T15:48:27.586-04:00"...so I try not to think about it" Me t...<i>"...so I try not to think about it"</i> Me too. In most cases, I do a good job of not worrying about that which I cannot control, but this is different. It's like that old saying about not being able to unsee what has been seen.<br /><br />Thanks for the complements on my writing, one and all. I wish I could have posted this with my name, but I don't want prospective employers seeing it.<br /><br />NJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-60544675979368335582013-03-28T15:36:50.107-04:002013-03-28T15:36:50.107-04:00Discussing the missteps would just distract from m...Discussing the missteps would just distract from my main message: that the endgame hits you sooner than you think and that no one has warned us yet of this.<br /><br />The only option I can think of in the spur of the moment to avoid this outcome is to sidestep it completely and get into management. Although maybe that only changes the options. As you advance in management over time, the number of jobs higher up to fight for are fewer and fewer.<br /><br />Chemjobber has recently spent a lot of time discussing alternative career paths for chemists. I would be curious if people in those paths see the endgame the same was as I do. Maybe if was ask politely, we can get CJ to lead/organize the discussion.<br /><br />NJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-30294478210762274692013-03-28T15:22:27.219-04:002013-03-28T15:22:27.219-04:0023 years puts the writer in the job market at 27 y...23 years puts the writer in the job market at 27 years old. What's the average age of a big pharma Ph.D. level hire fresh out of academia? The runway must be significantly longer now, and the overall flight seems shorter too. Jameshttp://masterorganicchemistry.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-55485566630689158572013-03-28T14:40:06.988-04:002013-03-28T14:40:06.988-04:00Anonymous: I won't say that this job market is...Anonymous: I won't say that this job market is exactly Darwinian. In a true Darwinian struggle the donkeys don't get to decide by fiat that the lions must all go extinct.<br /><br />NJ: Very well written indeed. I hope someone as experienced and well-qualified as you finds a worthy position soon.Wavefunctionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14993805391653267639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-58045820799711926412013-03-28T14:03:04.048-04:002013-03-28T14:03:04.048-04:00NJ,
I second what Neil said. You have described my...NJ,<br />I second what Neil said. You have described my own experience, only far more eloquently than I could have. I'm 51 myself, and have recently been through what you are going through now. To be honest I have a somewhat mediocre resume, but I eventually managed to find a reasonably well-paid job. However, the knowledge that if I lose this job, I am highly unlikely to find another scares me, so I try not to think about it. The job market for chemists (particularly in the pharmaceutical area) has become Darwinian. The only ones I can see who are benefitting are the multi-millionaire CEOs. For them, this must be like a second gilded age.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-16960435270385508302013-03-28T13:01:10.716-04:002013-03-28T13:01:10.716-04:00NJ, make sure you add 'great writer' to th...NJ, make sure you add 'great writer' to that resume! This is superbly written.<br /><br />Good luck in the search.Neilhttp://twitter.com/neilwithersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-37984245889885411312013-03-28T12:51:49.379-04:002013-03-28T12:51:49.379-04:00If you're able to get a job with the GOV, 17 y...If you're able to get a job with the GOV, 17 years is no problem. Boredom, however, might be.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02952336989733891167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-16465136381605914272013-03-28T12:50:34.939-04:002013-03-28T12:50:34.939-04:00I discovered a folk group in my area when I was in...I discovered a folk group in my area when I was in my mid 20s, just starting my career. A favorite song talks about growing older and retiring, and the line that has started to apply to me, and to the above writer is this:<br /><br /><i>He watches his options whittle down to a few, and his once wide horizons grow narrow...</i><br /><br />If I had to guess the major hangup with the writer's job searching is that a 23 year veteran with a great CV is not going to be an inexpensive prospect, not to mention that there might be many people of that caliber already on the market. The last 8 PhD level chemists my pharma company has hired are all fresh out of PhD/PD's. Not one experienced person was even brought it to interview.The Aqueous Layernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-2671271205837779872013-03-28T12:48:25.337-04:002013-03-28T12:48:25.337-04:00As someone closer to 50 than to 30, I agree it'...As someone closer to 50 than to 30, I agree it's pretty daunting and little to look forward to.<br /><br />That said, at least as far as I'm aware, most great discoveries (for example, most work that results in Nobel prizes) in science are made by those <40. I assume that that most RO1s are granted to those closer to 50 has more to do with cronyism than ability (speculation)?<br /><br />The current glut of graduating PhD chemists (thank you NIH/NSF expansion of late 90s!) and big pharma layoffs ain't gonna improve things much for the oldsters.<br /><br />bboooooyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-26725563758683566382013-03-28T12:34:01.641-04:002013-03-28T12:34:01.641-04:00Thanks for the insight NJ. As someone who is still...Thanks for the insight NJ. As someone who is still in the opening stages of my career, this is something that I have thought about. Though, I still have a couple decades before getting to your position.<br /><br />If you want to anonymously reply, I would like to know what missteps you may have made in hindsight that you believe could have changed your current outcome, or what advice you have to younger chemists to avoid this outcome (if possible).Polychemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11318163213252728838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-44316455716837115412013-03-28T12:24:54.057-04:002013-03-28T12:24:54.057-04:00It's sad that 50 is now to old. Especially wh...It's sad that 50 is now to old. Especially when I consider this to be the age when today's chemists are most useful. They have been around and immersed in the field long enough to truly make significant contributions. This is one of the reasons why the average age for receiving the big RO1 grants is increasing towards 50 now. With the amount of knowledge to learn and the lack of low lying fruit, I believe 50 to be the right age to really impact science.<br />What a shame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com