tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post7796933890962894305..comments2024-03-27T21:23:40.339-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: When is an job offer irrevocable? A series of hypothetical ethical dilemmasChemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-33807702040953155152016-04-01T13:26:16.078-04:002016-04-01T13:26:16.078-04:00Old thread, but I read an article the other day th...Old thread, but I read an article the other day that in the last several years, the workers who switched companies relatively often had the most wage growth. There may be some selection bias in this, but it makes sense because starting a new job is when you have the most leverage to get compensation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-2938391741012357672014-01-28T14:59:24.460-05:002014-01-28T14:59:24.460-05:00Is company A still hiring?Is company A still hiring?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13955696746160492718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-77483533731187226752014-01-28T08:38:02.060-05:002014-01-28T08:38:02.060-05:00Yeah - 20 years as a faculty member...
I don'...Yeah - 20 years as a faculty member... <br />I don't know if you are aware of this, but there's no tenure in the real world. The commitment of the company to the applicant doesn't extend 2 years, so why should the applicant be locked in for the same time? Yes, they have invested training in the individual and should have a reasonable expectation of ROI. Yes, the employee should be aware of the risk of being perceived as a job-hopper. However, if the company that agreed to hire the person hit a bump in the interval between the acceptance and the start date (an exceptionally long time in the original hypothetical), there would be nothing stopping them from pulling back on the offer. Worse, they could go ahead with the hire and then turn around in a few weeks and lay off the new employee. I know of a large pharmaceutical company that shut down a major operation in Michigan several years back. They were still moving people to Ann Arbor 3 weeks before the announcement that they were closing the operation! (The explanation offered was that they couldn't let the news of the impending shutdown leak out, so they had to proceed with standing offers as if nothing was wrong.) Tell ya what, professor, when corporate America begins to display ethics and respect, the rest of us can return the favor to them. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-52940372551678556032014-01-27T11:57:01.223-05:002014-01-27T11:57:01.223-05:00Old Fashioned again: I think RET better articulate...Old Fashioned again: I think RET better articulated the point I made above as the questions were posed from an ethical response and therefore trigger evaluation and answers based on morals which granted are not always hard and fast and certainly I would argue have deteriorated in Western Culture but should come from an individuals internalized principles. I believe honesty and ethics go hand in hand and the scenario of accepting an offer then acting like it was not truly accepted is I feel dishonest. I realize that today's Business Ethics and dare I say certain Asian systems that the norm is definitely not "do unto others as you want them to do to you" so I well may be living in a fantasy however if I do not act that way myself why would I expect build trusting relationships with others. Many problems of today's companies are likely due to lack of trust which only helps the lawyers employment.<br /><br />Frankly, although would probably suggest generally only a 1 year commitment rather than 2, RETs advice appears as good attempt at lesson in ethics that hope are followed as believe would create a better reputation for his students than if they did act otherwise and thus create a positive view of his group. Ultimately the students do have to take responsibility for their life and decisions yet the best PIs not only provide sound technical skills but help mold a better individual that colleagues are excited and happy to collaborate with and not have to watch ones back,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-85289247696464690962014-01-27T10:34:34.692-05:002014-01-27T10:34:34.692-05:00@ Anon 12:45 pm
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. ...@ Anon 12:45 pm<br /><br />Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I know a company can do this, but I don't understand how it expects quality work from its employees when it does...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-87184773049528031682014-01-26T15:36:22.044-05:002014-01-26T15:36:22.044-05:00From the perspective of an industrial chemist who ...From the perspective of an industrial chemist who went to graduate school, you do not look like an impartial party. As a tenured professor, your success depends on recruiting students. To recruit students, you must be able to place all the students you have in jobs. The chemistry world is small, so if one student in your group angers a potential employee, it may hurt your future students chances at landing jobs - and thus your future success.<br /><br />Your students should have the opportunity to look for their best interests. Once joining your group, they had no choice but to put your interests before their own until handed a piece of paper. At some point they must be free to think and act as individuals. What better opportunity to start than their first 'real' job?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-44998320169519436312014-01-26T12:45:31.521-05:002014-01-26T12:45:31.521-05:00"Recall, this situation began with you accept..."Recall, this situation began with you accepting presumably an offer to which you were happy/satisfied."<br /><br />I've reluctantly accepted a couple of positions where they sent me a low offer and refused to negotiate on compensation. I presume they were playing hardball because they had a stack of candidates, and knew I had no other options. When you apply and apply for 15 months, you tend to grab on to whatever offer finally rolls in, however horrible it may be. I'm not going to stick with Company A because they feel they can exploit the horrible job market and cut compensation to well below any industry average.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-15761116858559688192014-01-26T11:35:23.185-05:002014-01-26T11:35:23.185-05:00I appreciate the willingness to continue both side...I appreciate the willingness to continue both sides of the discussion. It is a good one and I don't presume to know the best answer (in ethics there is not one). Yes I do have tenure and I consider it a sweet gig and could not be happier. But I also choose to feel that way about it. I have colleagues that don't and that is true everywhere including Company B.REThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903652568728500306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-70568959542666578382014-01-26T11:30:15.402-05:002014-01-26T11:30:15.402-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.REThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02903652568728500306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-20947288896273136252014-01-26T11:10:22.908-05:002014-01-26T11:10:22.908-05:00Hmmmm... sort of similar to the difference of &quo...Hmmmm... sort of similar to the difference of "do unto others as you would have them do to you" (RET) versus "do unto others as they do to you." (practically everybody else)<br /><br />I think with life is good (tenured faculty) it is easier to take the higher "new testament-ish" ground. If you are scrounging for a job and are treated like shit by your bosses, will then I can understand why you might go "old testament"NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-54526024176862485262014-01-26T00:29:50.612-05:002014-01-26T00:29:50.612-05:00RET--Yeah, it was a much different world twenty ye...RET--Yeah, it was a much different world twenty years ago. Maybe you could share with us the difficult decisions you had to make to survive during the recession of the early 90's. <br /><br />Or, maybe you just lucked into a sweet gig and have the gall to cast aspersions on others working under very difficult circumstances. People like you are famous for thinking they "would have" stood up to the Nazis, for instance.<br /><br />Chemjobber, stick to your guns. I don't see any reason to doubt yourself because someone got on their high horse with you. <br /><br />RET, good luck to your advisees. Have any of them told you afterwards how it worked out for them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-78943368770845477172014-01-25T22:20:16.087-05:002014-01-25T22:20:16.087-05:00"Ethics is not a set of rules to be followed ...<i>"Ethics is not a set of rules to be followed or not, it is moral principle related to appropriate personal behavior.</i><br /><br />I find this statement to be deeply affecting, to the point of potentially changing my answers to questions 1 and 2. I have much more of a problem with calling those decisions "ethical" than I did before I read this comment. Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-25140817621943577382014-01-25T21:51:33.689-05:002014-01-25T21:51:33.689-05:00Wow. I am surprised and a bit disappointed but the...Wow. I am surprised and a bit disappointed but the post and comments. As a faculty member for almost twenty years, I haved advise my students not to accept interviews, phone or otherwise, after accepting an offer. My advice would be the acceptance is a two-year commitment. Ethics is not a set of rules to be followed or not, it is moral principle related to appropriate personal behavior. I agree that employers are not committed enough to their employees but that should not affect our personal moral actions. Recall, this situation began with you accepting presumably an offer to which you were happy/satisfied. Presumably, this was followed with all the people at Company A, associated with your position, shutting down their search process because they found the one.RETnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-10738651409975505352014-01-25T16:19:48.708-05:002014-01-25T16:19:48.708-05:00First, I suggest that you document everything. If ...First, I suggest that you document everything. If you manage to escape to a better opportunity, you may want to try to get your future employer to buy out the payback or, if that doesn't work, maybe even talk to a lawyer. The problem with the latter option, as employer A probably knows, is that that would cost you more money than the payback and they have deeper pockets than you do. Second, stay alert for new opportunities. Don't feel tied by the golden handcuffs. What if employer A changes the rules again?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-29494751585419126162014-01-25T16:08:53.548-05:002014-01-25T16:08:53.548-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Francisco Gonzalezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06840341609814571789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-89868037349471727792014-01-24T22:14:50.333-05:002014-01-24T22:14:50.333-05:00I had a professor offer me (and I accepted) a post...I had a professor offer me (and I accepted) a postdoctoral position in another country. I had already started filing the paperwork necessary to work there, booked a flight to find an apartment, and was getting quotes from movers when he emailed to say someone else applied for the position and she was such an outstanding candidate that he couldn't turn her down. Offer rescinded just like that.*<br /><br />No way would I ever feel obligated to work anywhere without a legally binding contract requiring me to perform some duties in exchange for money.<br /><br />* Dude emailed me a couple months later and said the girl took another job in industry, after she had signed all the paperwork to start for him, and the job was mine again if I wanted! (Holy karma!?) I didn't reply. This was back in 2008, but I still have all the emails. Let me know if you want copies for a post, chemjobber.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-69659543419624692352014-01-24T17:24:50.347-05:002014-01-24T17:24:50.347-05:00My, aren't we judgmental and smug.My, aren't we judgmental and smug. Bring the Moviesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-5435491828117865292014-01-24T09:51:26.161-05:002014-01-24T09:51:26.161-05:00I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the in...I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the informal anti-competitive agreements that many of the big silicon valley companies have to prevent employee poaching.<br /><br />Considering the complete lack of loyalty that exists among chemist employers, I'm inclined to agree with Chemjobber to the extent that you're a free agent until you start your first day of work with Company A. If after starting work with Company A and Company B finally rolls around and offers a job with a 20+% pay bump, I would go to my manager and let him know and give Company A an opportunity to match the offer.<br /><br />If Company B has significant non-tangibles such as a more appealing location (Hawaii, if you like) or projects that better align with your interests then this becomes a personal choice. I would have a frank discussion with my manager about my personal preferences and be sure to let them know that this was not simply a 'business' decision.<br /><br />From my own personal experience, I had accepted an offer for a GOV postdoc doing some very interesting work. During the time between finishing my work in grad school, I wrote a proposal for the postdoc PI, but also had an interview and job offer for a permanent position with the GOV. The permanent position was in a much more desirable location and most importantly was permanent, so I took it. I told the postdoc PI to use what I had written as he liked to get funding, and apologized. While the chemistry world might be small, I haven't felt any repercussions going on 3 years later. I don't feel this was my shiniest moment, but I had to do what was best for myself and my family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-2123448877686350272014-01-24T07:27:07.910-05:002014-01-24T07:27:07.910-05:00I think the guiding ethical principle here is &quo...I think the guiding ethical principle here is "do unto others as the bast*rds would do unto you, given half a chance". Should word get out that one had done this, I think the effect on perception would be positive- a strong-willed, assertive employee in this day and age is no bad thing, surely?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-30504711036870030682014-01-24T07:12:20.080-05:002014-01-24T07:12:20.080-05:00This is where you go to the boss, explain the real...This is where you go to the boss, explain the reality of the situation, and ask for pay commensurate with your experience. If the company is willing to pay, then you stay. After sinking that much money, I bet they're willing to pay you what you're worth. If not, then they made a bad investment, and have only themselves to blame for the results.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-31324135003439743572014-01-24T01:29:21.243-05:002014-01-24T01:29:21.243-05:00Anon: Interesting and very honorable suggestions t...Anon: Interesting and very honorable suggestions to speak of loyalty. However, can a non-breathing entity possess loyalty? <br /><br />Unfortunately we no longer live in an employment environment where loyalty is rewarded from either side. We should never assume that an employer owes you anything more than a paycheck every X weeks. <br /><br />Yes, accepting an offer is making a commitment, but there are other commitments that must be equally considered, such as the Employee's commitment to his/her family. I would never fault an employee (or prospective employee) to do better for themselves. Never. When I see a resume with 6 jobs in 5 years, that's a warning flag that the prospective employee is a job hopper. Loyalty in personal relationships is a virtue. Loyalty to a non-breathing entity, I'm not so sure.<br /><br />Will word "get around?" Maybe, maybe not. And then again - would anyone at B really care? That has to be gauged on an individual basis. <br />Harry Elstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16091371872387480309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-67967672608761788432014-01-24T00:58:29.991-05:002014-01-24T00:58:29.991-05:00If you're an at-will employee (that is, did no...If you're an at-will employee (that is, did not sign a n-year contract), then it's "see ya." If you received some kind of sign-on bonus or relocation from company A then you should consider paying back a pro-rated portion to A, even if it were not stated in the contract.Harry Elstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16091371872387480309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-56286623384443009612014-01-23T23:30:15.564-05:002014-01-23T23:30:15.564-05:00@ 11:20pm - Your logic is faulty. You are assumin...@ 11:20pm - Your logic is faulty. You are assuming that managers will move around, then hold grudges against those who also move around. Hypocritical managers may exist, but they are not the norm.<br /><br />The laziest, worst workers I've ever met in my life have one commonality. They are all those who are desperate to hang on to the position they have currently. Loyality is not loyality if it is based on fear of the knowledge that they are not competitive in the job market.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-52479735577832976402014-01-23T23:20:23.886-05:002014-01-23T23:20:23.886-05:00Industrial chemistry is a lot smaller world than m...Industrial chemistry is a lot smaller world than most people realize, and management moves around more than the rank and file. The hiring manager you burn today might be your R&D director tomorrow. I don't remember every great co-worker I've had, but somehow I remember each and every one of the screwballs and hucksters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-84052928765608536912014-01-23T21:57:56.546-05:002014-01-23T21:57:56.546-05:00Legally, that is the case. But it is often legal t...Legally, that is the case. But it is often legal to be a complete bleep. If I were to land in the US, lap up ~$20k in relocation fees, and then turn around and hand in my two week's notice, that would not just be burning the bridge, but lobbing a nuke on it. There are really two issues at stake.<br /><br />1: What goes around comes around. If I do something that bleepheaded, it won't look good and people will find out about it.<br /><br />2: Honor. Unlike the headline case, my company has put lots of time, effort, and money into me. I really do owe them something in a personal sense, even if it is not written down in a contract. I believe in returning favors, even if my partner is a faceless corporation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com