tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post8228454779305704173..comments2024-03-19T05:47:41.701-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: A depressing post about graduate student (and postdoctoral) mental healthChemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-85122948765154209442018-03-02T18:05:53.950-05:002018-03-02T18:05:53.950-05:00Hi -- Just wanted to write a quick note about this...Hi -- Just wanted to write a quick note about this a few years late. As an alum of the top chem department you mention, where a postdoc and grad student passed in the fall of 2016, it fills me with rage to see coverage like that at this article over at c&EN news (https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i32/Grappling-graduate-student-mental-health.html). The article cites a 2015 survey of students and postdocs in the department. I can report that this survey showed an abysmal lack of community, support and well-being in the department. Grad students and postdocs were clear that this was arising from bad mentoring and a toxic work culture within the department. The common cases of anxiety and depression are arising from a culture created and held up by PIs with no social skills, chips on their shoulders, and axes to grind. No real actions were taken when the survey results came out. It was met with a yawn from the faculty. Nothing changed. Then these suicides happen in 2016 and the department's response is, well, these events are isolated and unrelated to you all, go back to work. They'll throw some cheap money at it (seriously, what's a few thousand dollars at Harvard?) It's a sink and sink environment, that I felt lucky to leave behind me forever. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08959345641401058507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-33496958971841835482016-12-12T16:55:24.980-05:002016-12-12T16:55:24.980-05:00Several years ago I was doing postdoc with a very ...Several years ago I was doing postdoc with a very well known chemistry professor at a top school in the US. One graduate student in the lab was obviously in a very poor mental state, so at some point I pulled her aside, and talked to her. She confessed to me that she has been contemplating suicide for quite some time, so I convinced her to seek professional help. When I reported this situation to our advisor, politely asking him to be more mindful with the pressures he puts on his graduate students, his response was quick and sobering: "Messing with my mentoring style is the easiest way to end your own career in chemistry". I do understand that building up mental stability is a big part of graduate school, but I still suspect there may exist routes that do not involve human sacrifices. There is a very fine line between provoking copycat suicides and pretending the problem doesn't exist at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-72219121328929206242016-12-06T03:43:03.464-05:002016-12-06T03:43:03.464-05:00All good points, but you should also mention the e...All good points, but you should also mention the enormous influence of the PI on the well-being of the grad student/post-doc. My experience as a post-doc with a big name PI at an East Coast Ivy League school marked me for life and nearly pushed me into a nervous breakdown. The PI in question used blackmail as a management tool by threatening to write a poor or even damning reference. This, combined with the difficulties and disappointments of day-to-day bench work, caused me unbearable distress and anxiety as I feared I would not get a job afterwards. Needless to say, I have nothing but contempt for the man now. Nick Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-60786918102185408512016-11-30T19:33:33.231-05:002016-11-30T19:33:33.231-05:00Just a few anecdotes relevant to the topic.
When ...Just a few anecdotes relevant to the topic.<br /><br />When I was doing my Ph.D. I worked with different cyanide compounds. At one point I couldn't find these reagents and found out they were now under lock and key. The reason was that my advisor had returned from Europe where a lab member there had killed themselves with cyanide.<br /><br />Also in Europe is the story of Norman Zarcone, some of which you can read about in this recent Globe and Mail article.<br />http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/GAM/20161126/RBIBCOVEREUROJOBS<br /><br />I would echo some of the thoughts that have been expressed by other people here regarding excessive pressure to produce results and lack of support. The latter point has several facets including institutional resources (counselling, quality career advice), advisor availability and encouragement, adequate research support, and money.<br /><br />The Globe article focussed on lack of jobs and money as the factors which drove Norman Zarcone to suicide. As a post-doc with very low pay living in a very expensive city, I can definitely relate to this.<br /><br />I love science and really would like to continue doing research in academia, industry, or government, but I have serious doubts if this is possible and worry about finding any work that would pay reasonably well, say above 50K.<br /><br />I hate to be negative, but I would advise anyone thinking of heading into a science career to do some serious research and really only proceed if they are very high achieving. Having said that, I'm not sure there any "safe" careers anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-32458919721338440302016-11-29T12:59:07.815-05:002016-11-29T12:59:07.815-05:00Reporting is troublesome (as argued well in this d...Reporting is troublesome (as argued well in this discussion). Unfortunately, a lack of reporting also is problematic since it prevents the aggregation of data that can point to a department or institution actually being an issue. It's probably best not to report it as general "news", but you can use your (even second-, third-, or nth-hand) knowledge of the incidents to help others.<br /><br />One important thing you can do, if you were once a member of that institution (undergrad, grad student, postdoc, faculty, whatever), is to directly and formally ask the department/school what resources they provide for students in need. If they don't give a satisfactory answer, let them know that word of mouth is potentially giving them a reputation (news travels fast in the incestuous circles of chemistry, as we all know) and if they are not providing free, confidential counseling and support to their workers, they should. Additionally, if they are providing these options, the department should make sure that students are aware of these services early and often.<br /><br />Any department that is "very prominent" has the ability to provide these services. The typical age and common life experiences of the graduate student or postdoc (or even new faculty member) can often lead to the new or further development of mental health issues that can lead to suicidal thoughts and actions. Even if graduate school is not THE cause, it could be A cause. Having a real mental health support network is not an admission of guilt, but simply a sign that you care about the wellbeing of your students/employees.Andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13190786922400371978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-49625469617156965102016-11-29T12:11:18.656-05:002016-11-29T12:11:18.656-05:00It's a suicide, you're NEVER going to have...It's a suicide, you're NEVER going to have all the details is my point, hence the choice of word. If that was the case we wouldn't talk about anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-88053790163305365192016-11-29T10:36:37.285-05:002016-11-29T10:36:37.285-05:00For the purposes of focusing the discussion on &qu...For the purposes of focusing the discussion on "what I should do?", I'd prefer that we not focus on the individual case. Chemjobberhttp://chemjobber.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-76951679834249302572016-11-29T09:32:42.599-05:002016-11-29T09:32:42.599-05:00For the benefit of those of us who have been out o...For the benefit of those of us who have been out of grad school long enough to not know any current students/postdocs, can someone at least say which departments we're talking about?KTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-54395464502955066172016-11-29T06:11:34.623-05:002016-11-29T06:11:34.623-05:00"Lame excuse"? It's a prudent excus..."Lame excuse"? It's a prudent excuse. Otherwise you start getting comments like we've already heard here - "I heard from colleagues..." "I heard it from a labmate who took the bus..." These aren't exactly reliable sources to make a story out of. Also, you'll most likely start getting the "department sweeping it under the rug" comments when you may not know whether that's true or not. Unfortunately people commit suicide for a variety of reasons, and unless there is a note saying I did it because of the stresses of grad school, PI, etc., any interpretation would be seriously flawed. Hope no one conducts there research in this manner.Lyle Langleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-24071209444407315412016-11-28T23:52:44.986-05:002016-11-28T23:52:44.986-05:00The word "potentially" due to suicide ma...The word "potentially" due to suicide makes this decision especially difficult- this is not always easy to confirm, for many of the privacy reasons you cite. The deeply personal nature of the loss also means that even when the cause is privately known, information may travel slowly among tight networks and not be intended as public confirmation.<br /><br />This isn't to defend the culture of some academic departments, but the reasons for a student death to fly under the radar are complex. There have been prominent cases that garnered media attention by focusing closely on one department (notably Harvard), but it's hard to pin down solid numbers when students move between institutions and may even be a part of multiple departments. (where do you count the suicide of a new postdoc, or of a student whose interdisciplinary lab just moved institutions? How *many* suicides get counted if each department reports the loss to affected friends and colleagues? And no, those aren't hypotheticals)<br /><br />This is a genuinely difficult problem for many reasons- not the least of which being that systemic issues don't lend themselves to a single narrative. That's what makes some of your previous posts on the subject so worth sharing- each of these losses is a loss to the entire community, and finding ways to come together and discuss the problem is a continual challenge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-19240370594540088392016-11-28T19:32:28.170-05:002016-11-28T19:32:28.170-05:00100% agreed. The importance of the backup plan can...100% agreed. The importance of the backup plan cannot be overstated. I firmly believe in the old saying that your first "real" job is the most important one that you'll ever have. I've seen a lot of people go to a Fortune 50 company or get a faculty position, then get laid off or be denied tenure. In most cases, these folks have been able to transition to another career based on the fact that they worked for Big Company X or were a "smart ex-professor". By contrast, I've known people who immediately got jobs as temps and have struggled to build a solid resume. I'm not saying it's fair or rational, just that it happens. An old grad school buddy of mine got fed up with his advisor and decided to leave grad school, but he was smart and secured a job at a regional coatings company doing formulation work before leaving. He'll never win a Nobel prize or be a highly-cited author, but he's the first to admit that he's happy getting his weekends off and spending time hunting and fishing. He often equates leaving academia to leaving a cult. While he was there, he always felt guilty and saw himself as a second-rate, second-class citizen. A few years after leaving, he just shakes his head at self-important academics (myself included) and the broken, exploitative system that we've created for ourselves. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-80952416195365718532016-11-28T18:31:41.536-05:002016-11-28T18:31:41.536-05:00I had my issues in graduate school as well. It was...I had my issues in graduate school as well. It wasn't suicidal thoughts per see but the STRONG urge to quit. There is something about setting up four to five reactions per day, doing multiple flash columns, taking NMR's and finding out that your reaction did not work, your product degraded, you formed the WRONG product or you keep getting a HUGE excess of some stubborn byproduct that is destroying your holy grail of 95% yield or greater. Even worse, thoughts continuously run through you head that if "this stuff" doesn't work then you will not graduate. Then, if you do not graduate, you will not get a good job. If you don't get a good job, then you and your parents etc. will see you as a complete failure. Not to mention, you've probably already wasted 3 years of your life by now making poverty/slave wages while pushing 30 years of age. Most graduate students are like boxers in a boxing match. A failed reaction is like getting hit on the chin and dropped. The thoughts running through their minds about total failure is that referee slowly but surely counting to 10. Instead of sitting there for two seconds and THEN attempting to rise off of the canvas, a typical grad. student will JUMP UP, while still woozy and dizzy and have a go a their opponent again only to get clocked and dropped yet again. Thoughts of defeat start to set in and they jump up yet again only to get dropped and Ko'ed for the 10 count. This is the point where grad students get suicidal and have thoughts of giving up. I've been there before. There is something about human nature that is averse to failure. Failing a few times is fine but in an academic environment where you are being judged by your peers where you seek the respect (and recommendation) of your P.I. and thesis committee, you seriously begin to doubt yourself. In an Ivy League environment with so called "Legacy students" where they feel that must "live up to" the stigma that they "will succeed above the rest", failure becomes even scarier. In the end, even if you don't get the glamorous job or that "stellar" thesis that you were dreaming of, realize that graduate school in the sciences teaches you a hard lesson. When you get punched in the mouth in life, sit there for two seconds..shake off the cobwebs and think about WHY you failed instead of jumping up at the "one second" count while still woozy and trying to be a "gunslinger". Write out reaction mechanisms, search SciFinder while looking for alternative methods and them ask your P.I. what he thinks of your solution. THEN, once the referee's count hits 2 or 3, you can pull yourself off of the canvas and fight again. I failed to mention that some P.I.'s are just rough as well. The expectations of their students is unnecessarily rough. Some want you in the lab 80+ hours a week and they want REAL, publishable progress within short periods of time or you are kicked out of the group. You can usually tell who these gung-ho P.I. types are. They typically publish an obscene number of papers per YEAR and their current grad. students only leave the lab to eat or take restroom breaks. I think every person deciding to enter graduate school or pursue science as a career should have a backup plan just in case you "get knocked out" and have to retire and find a new career. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-32207695542603241042016-11-28T16:24:20.075-05:002016-11-28T16:24:20.075-05:00In my own situation, there were definitely no othe...In my own situation, there were definitely no other contributing causes. Undergrad was the happiest four years of my life, and I never came anywhere near contemplating suicide before or after grad school.KTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-30775337517826954682016-11-28T16:19:55.288-05:002016-11-28T16:19:55.288-05:00It's the same.It's the same. Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-15117213429667652032016-11-28T16:04:18.844-05:002016-11-28T16:04:18.844-05:00I think for one, many PI's while being good sc...I think for one, many PI's while being good scientists have no business mentoring anyone. They create this environment of "make me happy or you wont get a good reference", ultimately having half of their students fearing that if they don't get something to work, they will be seen as failures, not get a good reference, and ultimately have no future. I think a lot of PI's like this pressure cooker environment as everyone is constantly producing, or at least trying to, and ultimately, they benefit at the cost of their group members. <br /><br />I think for the most part, being prone to some level of depression is just part of the human condition, but being in grad school/postdoc puts you under constant pressure for such a long time that it becomes hard to see beyond it for some people. <br /><br />Universities need to be put under pressure to make sure incoming PI's (and existing ones) get some actual management training. Just because you were lucky enough to get on some high profile papers in your postdoc and got a faculty job does not make you qualified to manage people, who by the nature of the work, are under stressful circumstances.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-57974530896598312012016-11-28T15:55:02.795-05:002016-11-28T15:55:02.795-05:00Seems like the right sentiment but don't think...Seems like the right sentiment but don't think it sends the right message. Chemistry is so small that, i feel, anyone in the field, hears about what happens even without media coverage. Assuming what I know is the same as what you know. I hope it is, otherwise we've doubled in numbers. =X Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17637777888154155280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-29991824780389489432016-11-28T15:14:32.535-05:002016-11-28T15:14:32.535-05:00I'm a chemist working on a collaborative proje...I'm a chemist working on a collaborative project with someone in Arts & Humanities to try to find ways of toning down this "all or nothing" rhetoric that seems to plague modern students. For example, grad students feel that if they don't get the experiment to work, they won't publish, then they won't get a good postdoc, job, etc etc. Similarly, my undergrads are so crippled by the fear of failing that they won't even make an attempt at success. In academia, we convince ourselves that our "legacies" mean anything at all and that we're failures if we don't have tenure by 35 at an R1. The problem with setting such unreasonably high expectations is that there are so many factors outside of our control that can derail our idealized 10-year plans. The biggest challenge is getting people to believe that failure is not the end of the world and that there are multiple paths to happiness, not all of which involve six-figure salaries or tenured positions. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-56342833046153562702016-11-28T14:28:23.682-05:002016-11-28T14:28:23.682-05:00Sadly, this is far more common than we expect; I&#...Sadly, this is far more common than we expect; I've lost two friends (not in chemistry) to suicide. When I was in graduate school, there was an incident where a student tried to commit suicide by consuming thallium. This incident was kept under wraps by the university - I only heard about it from a labmate who used to take the bus with the student. I believe the student was later sent back to his home country; unfortunately, the faculty at my department tended to have a rather Darwinian view on graduate studies, viewing it as "survivial of the fittest", and just leaving the students to weed themselves out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-62522074602428356722016-11-28T14:15:25.602-05:002016-11-28T14:15:25.602-05:00Seems that the "ask" is more than just w...Seems that the "ask" is more than just writing an obituary-type story. If it's just an obit no worries, if it's a statement (or question) of cause, then first-hand knowledge would be required.Lyle Langleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-5439009623433126662016-11-28T14:14:49.848-05:002016-11-28T14:14:49.848-05:00As St. Andrews said, if your work could address th...As St. Andrews said, if your work could address the general questions of "Are Depts/universities/PIs failing their suicidal students? Is grad school itself a trigger? Are there better ways to support grad students' mental health?" without being specific about any one situation, then great.<br /><br />However, if things are being swept under the rug, profs are turning a blind eye to mental health, etc., then bringing to light specific situations may help to address the overall problems. Just as long as more victims (ie the families) are not created in the process. Easy to say, hard to do. <br /><br />ClutchChemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-49425686936678088632016-11-28T14:11:34.813-05:002016-11-28T14:11:34.813-05:00Just because we don't know every single detail...Just because we don't know every single detail about the situation doesn't mean it's not worth reporting. That is a lame excuse. People ask what is the benefit of discussing but I ask, what is the benefit of keeping it in the dark (besides "protecting" PI/institution reputation? The questions brought by St. Andrews Lynx are important. Maybe putting it in the light can help some people realize they are not alone and point them to help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-8454333876765291522016-11-28T14:08:54.639-05:002016-11-28T14:08:54.639-05:00I appreciate this comment a lot. Thank you. I appreciate this comment a lot. Thank you. Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-53413049171851907702016-11-28T14:07:27.609-05:002016-11-28T14:07:27.609-05:00huh, had not considered that. (Probably wouldn'...huh, had not considered that. (Probably wouldn't do it?) Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-87304992597391748952016-11-28T13:59:11.884-05:002016-11-28T13:59:11.884-05:00To kinda repeat what others have already said: unl...To kinda repeat what others have already said: unless you know that they were suicides, and that the families are OK with you bringing that up if they themselves haven't already done so. As has been said already - it is hard to parse out whether someone had pre-existing mental health issues and if it was grad school itself that "caused" the suicide. <br /><br />http://www.emorycaresforyou.emory.edu/resources/suicidestatistics.html <br />Unfortunately, a lot of young people (especially men) do think about or attempt to kill themselves. I'm not sure it's a problem specific to grad school. <br /><br />From what I know about a recent suicide (that I think you're referring to) - I heard that colleagues were aware the person in question was unwell and tried to help them. I'm not sure what angle you want to put on the news by disclosing it. Are Depts/universities/PIs failing their suicidal students? Is grad school itself a trigger? Are there better ways to support grad students' mental health? Presumably we can have these kinds of discussions without naming names. <br /><br />St Andrews Lynxhttp://www.standrewslynx.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-57838230850985268202016-11-28T13:55:49.457-05:002016-11-28T13:55:49.457-05:00It's almost like someone needs to set up a ...It's almost like someone needs to set up a 'CIA memorial wall' for grad students in academia who surcumb to suicide. (Read: stars carved into a marble wall for KIA CIA operatives, but for chemists).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com