tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post8443862890404867373..comments2024-03-19T05:47:41.701-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: Is graduate school in chemistry bad for your mental health? Part 1Chemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-53378783031262777732016-10-24T22:32:43.825-04:002016-10-24T22:32:43.825-04:00where did you go in Europe? I'm considering a ...where did you go in Europe? I'm considering a school in central Europe, I'm in a grad school now but it's incredibly bad, no classes offered in my major and not allowed in the lab anytime alone or at all after 6pm. Basically there is no lab time at all, maybe 1-2 hours a week if I'm lucky, also they have us doing a GA job instead of TA which I found out means no teaching, just proctoring tests for undergrads and administering iclicker quizzes. Help! what an expensive mistake for me! I came from working in industry where we had full access to the labs and instruments 24/7 to pretty much doing no chemistry in grad school, it really sucks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10407022247162776917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-24427730378891398162015-02-27T20:20:18.826-05:002015-02-27T20:20:18.826-05:00For stress releaf we went to strip barsFor stress releaf we went to strip barsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-20713855069071888392015-02-27T19:56:50.793-05:002015-02-27T19:56:50.793-05:00In PhD grad school, chemistry, one of our group...In PhD grad school, chemistry, one of our group's two resident "Madonnas" threatened to get his gun and shoot me if I ever left his monitor on again. He is now a vice-president of a research university. SuckHoleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-45137171783971513002015-02-17T10:32:56.083-05:002015-02-17T10:32:56.083-05:00Hi Chem-me,
Nothing that you do for the love of it...Hi Chem-me,<br />Nothing that you do for the love of it is worthless, not to you. If you dare to dig deep, focus on what you want. Right now you seem to be focused on doing what others (your parents, future advisers or employers) want. You can't possibly satisfy all of them, so no wonder you feel exhausted and lost.<br /><br />Looking for purpose in life is tough and risky and you may not like what you discover. The prize of this discovery is well worth the risk, though. There is fun and satisfaction and new sources of resistance to all kinds of head-winds you will encounter in life.<br /><br />Since (for now) you are an engineer-to-be here is a structured approach to this quest:<br />- find your core values<br />- find lifestyle that agrees with your values<br />- live it<br />- repeat<br /><br />Your values and lifestyles will change along with your desires and goals. That is good. I can't promise you that, but you may actually find that you like ChemEng and/or graduate school when you ditch the expectations of others and focus on your values.<br /><br />I am a ChemEng (M.Sc.) and a phys. org. chemist (Ph.D.) and I love to mix and match my challenges and skills to solve them. I get accused of not being the "specialist" and "professional" by all kinds of narrow minded people. I also solved problems and made correct predictions that no one else could hack. That means I got to define my success and I am happy to please others without giving up my soul.SJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-89961719744728079142015-02-17T08:31:14.977-05:002015-02-17T08:31:14.977-05:00Definately a lot of luck involved as to whether gr...Definately a lot of luck involved as to whether grad school or a post-doc will be a good experience. Lot has to do with your project, and it is dificult to forsee if your project will work. If your project produces positive results quickly, then you and your advisor will be happy, and this goes very far in propelling you forward--you will feel god about yourself, you will be confident, and this will filter into your personal life. <br /><br />Again, it is very difficult to forsee that a project will or will not work, and you may not want to give up if it does not, thinking success is just around the corner. If you spend 2-3 years on a project that does not produce publishable results with little help from your advisor (that has happened to me) that can be hard on your mental health, and you may not get a lot of support from the people around you.<br /><br />If you don't want to be in a place where a lot of good luck determines whether you will succeed (ie get a good job) then you should not go to grad school. That's my opinion. Good luck.NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-50806298012394111382015-02-16T22:53:26.600-05:002015-02-16T22:53:26.600-05:00Hi there CJ,
I'm not a Chemistry undergrad, b...Hi there CJ,<br /><br />I'm not a Chemistry undergrad, but I really wish I was. My parents wanted me to study Chemical Engineering, which is what I'm doing now. I'm currently a wide-eyed junior undergrad and for the past 3 years I have been utterly exhausted, bitter, depressed, and lazy/unmotivated. Personally, I think it's from not pursuing what I wanted to study. It could also be that I was in classes for the last 1.5 years in a row without a summer vacation. But could it be that I'm just not up to par in academics? Right now, I try my hardest in the hopes of getting good grades for an undergrad degree and doing whatever I want afterwards.<br /><br />I know my time is limited to figure out if I want to apply to grad school, but at the moment, I'm reconsidering it. My sibling (who is a grad student) even tells me that I am not emotionally rigid or tough enough to do it. I'm sorry to say that I stumbled upon this post while googling "Am I healthy enough for a PhD". It seems like these days, strong mental and physical health is necessary to be successful. My opinion probably doesn't matter, but I feel that it isn't right; that grad school is being restricted not only for the mentally superior, but for the physically and emotionally superior as well.<br /><br />I would appreciate any advice from you or others. Is it true that grad school is so caustic that one must consider their health before applying? Should I perform some type of test (in addition to GREs) to see if I am healthy, physically and mentally, to do grad school? I don't know what to do with myself after I graduate, so that's kind of my only option aside from a second bachelor's degree, which would be worthless in a way.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Chem-me<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Post script: Thank you so much for discussing this. I think the academic community really needs to take their spotlight and shine it on this particular issue so there can be a thorough, community-wide, ongoing discussion and understand this problem in hopes to help future students. Future students who want to do a grad degree have a lot more on their plates since they'll have to learn what we're discovering now, and they'll have to solve the worlds greatest problems.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-33842445463305322472014-07-01T13:22:12.035-04:002014-07-01T13:22:12.035-04:00wish me luck...im giving up on chemistry...i will ...wish me luck...im giving up on chemistry...i will start another courses soon...i already graduate my degree...but life sucks!!!im depressing because all the lab work...i never choose chemisty but i just go with the flow bcoz i score chemistry during foundation..im excel in academia..but lab is freaking suck!!...im already 27...i know its too late..i graduate my bachelor at 21...i wish i continue degree in other courses...but i keep continue my studies...now...im giving up phd in chemistry...i want to do something else...i kinda regret...if i realize chemistry is freaking suck...i should do something else ages ago...i did organic chem...i end up coughing blood...so not cool..count me in...im quit!!!!this past few years in graduate school is torturing my mind!!!i love theories...but dealing with chemical make my health deteriorate badly!!a lot of ppl think im still young..yeah..i rather pursuing something else...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-72259765065118484452014-04-15T21:14:35.995-04:002014-04-15T21:14:35.995-04:00I agree a 100% with you. Advisor and colleagues pl...I agree a 100% with you. Advisor and colleagues play a significant role in your successAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-67350794777153828512013-12-05T00:32:54.403-05:002013-12-05T00:32:54.403-05:00Q1: Grad school can be as terrible as I have intim...Q1: Grad school can be as terrible as I have intimated; it is also the freest and funnest environment that I've been in, in a long time. Private industry is weirder and stupider, but it pays a lot better. <br /><br />Q2: It's really important not to pick a jerk as a PI. It's also really important to know your own personal ability to withstand jerks, and (potentially) be a jerk back. A lot of people think "I'm tough enough and I'm good enough." I did, and I think I was wrong. Doesn't mean that you will be. <br /><br />Q3: You need to ask good questions, and you need to learn how to listen about PIs. Most graduate students will be willing to (behind closed doors, or with the right amount of beer) be quite honest how how jerky (or not) their profs are. Most questions will be: <br /><br />1. Is Prof X a dick? <br />2. Where do Prof X's people end up? <br />3. Do you think Prof X is fair? <br />4. Who did the worst in Prof X's group? Why? <br /><br />Most of those questions will get you where you want to go. <br /><br />Best wishes, CJChemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-83951288210157113412013-12-04T23:46:06.568-05:002013-12-04T23:46:06.568-05:00Hi, potential Grad school student here. I'm sh...Hi, potential Grad school student here. I'm shocked and frightened by what I'm reading here. I've talked with my mentor about grad school being an emotionally tough environment, but these testimonies have placed grad school in a whole new, and much darker light. I thought scientific communities in grad school were supposed to be havens of free thought and collaboration? what the hell is the point in being so nasty to each other in the first place, i mean every one is really in the same boat and the only way i can see grad students turning on each other is if the mentor is instigating it with some bullshit like " whoever gets the synthesis first gets the publication."I want to ask " is Grad school really as terrible as you say?" but i have a feeling i already know the answer. how much of the stress could be mitigated simply by picking a PI that isn't an asshole, and what are some ways i can find out who to avoid once I'm in or when i visit? What questions should i ask and who should i ask?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-58163796093479992562013-11-17T13:12:05.170-05:002013-11-17T13:12:05.170-05:00Great thread.
With me, I don't remember that ...Great thread.<br /><br />With me, I don't remember that I cried, but I do remember sending an email to my advisor describing my frustrations with the dead-end thesis project I was on (which was correct--three years and no publication from it). I think in that e-mail I asked from him for help, advice suggestions. <br /><br />He told me in person that he did not have time to read my email.<br /><br />That lead me to where I am now: a complete divorcing of myself from having any personal ambition.<br /><br />My bad grad student and horrible post-doc experience, along with a pitiful personal life, did lead to some psychological problems (to embarrassing to describe, but nothing in terms of sociopathy) which I am still recovering from.<br /><br />My family thinks there is something wrong with me, and they are right. But I seek to improve.NMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-50112310475151685832013-11-17T02:42:22.908-05:002013-11-17T02:42:22.908-05:00Leading cause of death for chemists is suicide.Leading cause of death for chemists is suicide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-42334432523181902032013-06-13T09:56:28.910-04:002013-06-13T09:56:28.910-04:00I am a first year chem grad and from all of these ...I am a first year chem grad and from all of these post it appears it gets worse before it gets better... and this last semester it got pretty low. Getting a PhD is not something I just decided to do because there was no jobs and nothing else better. I worked as a Tech I know what my options are with just a BS in chemistry and it isn't what I want. I have wanted a PhD for as long as I could remember. I am smart enough but I don't know if I am emotionally or mentally strong enough. When do you throw in the towel and say enough is enough? People not in the program don't understand and tell you to be strong you can do it. My peers say yeah, yeah we feel that way too but their abilities to function normally suggest they don't. Who do you talk to then? I don't even know what I need to hear to make it all okay. I don't want to reach the point of hopelessness and a deep depression I can recover from, but I also don't want to give up so easy. <br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />BoilerChemistAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-88505662982933422982013-04-01T12:35:19.043-04:002013-04-01T12:35:19.043-04:00I wasn't considering grad school before. The i...I wasn't considering grad school before. The insane work expectations and completely unhealthy lifestyle turned me off from my first day in Organic Chem, when my professor handed out packets declaring "to be a successful organic chemist, one must commit 60 hours a week at minimum." But your description of grad school in Europe has made me rethink that idea. Anyone know of any schools in the US with a similar work-life balance?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-61557226669189181272013-03-27T00:26:55.016-04:002013-03-27T00:26:55.016-04:00JAR
Nice read chemjobber. I comply to your take. I...JAR<br />Nice read chemjobber. I comply to your take. I am a 4th year grad student in analytical chemistry working in already dumped instruments taken by my advisor. I have gone through the craziest moments in my life while being in grad school. I got severe kidney problem that I am living with 30 % functions left just because of the stress I got here in last 3-4 years. Even though I work hard, and do works in organized way my boss is never impressed with me. He believes my approach is always random which is not true. I feel pretty much depressed and at a times I can't find answer why I am here? I really don't know what should I do next......I love my life though!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-10281412733735590292013-01-23T01:47:25.789-05:002013-01-23T01:47:25.789-05:004th year PhD about to finish - in tot. syn as well...4th year PhD about to finish - in tot. syn as well<br /><br />I still love synthesis and my advisor was hard at me at times- what really got me was when things I was ordered to try (by a post doc) didn't work and I was held responsible for it. That broke me down.<br /><br />Afterwards (which involved alot of therapy, drugs (both pharmaceutical and recreational) and soul searching) I bowed to do things that =I= thought had a reasonable chance of working (it was my time and effort after all). <br /><br />Ofcourse chemistry is still chemistry so "motivating" didn’t stop but atleast I was being held accountable for my own ideas/actions. This made the experience quite acceptable for me. Looking back my one regret is not coming to that specific conclusion sooner. When our nut was cracked I was very happy to see that my PI was happier then me (for me!) <br /><br />Otherwise PI's are still humans and they are not perfect- I would guess much of the nastiness come from trying to motivate people and geting them to achieve their very best. It's not pleasant but I think it is what lot of us signed up for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-32674813454318330922013-01-09T13:51:55.652-05:002013-01-09T13:51:55.652-05:00My boss always wanted us to compete, whether it wa...My boss always wanted us to compete, whether it was hours or days or projects completed. All we wanted to do was collaborate, and we resented him for it. The first real nice things he ever said about me was introducing me at my thesis defense. By then, I really wanted out of chemistry forever. I have since had 4 months off of work and my brain is finally realizing that I do want to be a scientist, but that grad school was a very poor way of getting into it. I was so jealous of students who didn't work as many hours as I did (and weren't required to), and they got a clear head out of grad school AND a great job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-52915336654398461412013-01-09T12:22:41.590-05:002013-01-09T12:22:41.590-05:00Humm...I have something like "shadow people&q...Humm...I have something like "shadow people" stalking me at night. This seems to be very common and related to not getting enough sleep and having trouble reaching deep REM state of sleeping. What medication did you take to finally get rid of them? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-56262380498567784172013-01-08T21:59:18.928-05:002013-01-08T21:59:18.928-05:00"You're viewed as a failure" - I agr..."You're viewed as a failure" - I agree. In industry, there's no shame in getting laid off. I resisted quitting grad school for a long time, even though I was miserable, because I didn't want to be like the lazy, pot-smoking partiers who failed out of my undergrad school. After I moved back home, I laid low and intentionally lost touch with a lot of undergrad friends because I didn't want to admit I quit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-72181322512510033432013-01-08T16:29:51.891-05:002013-01-08T16:29:51.891-05:00Grad school is hard labor with a gun to your head ...Grad school is hard labor with a gun to your head - if you can't get your project to work, then you're a viewed as a failure, no PhD reward no matter how hard you tried. Few other jobs have working conditions that dire. In industry, people get laid off more because the project itself doesn't work, or didn't show results in time. In grad school, you are expected to coax nature to follow your hypothesis, and we all know about that success rate.<br /><br />I think it's unrealistic to expect advisors to become great managers - many of them are products of the same awful circumstances, and none of them get any management training. It's also demoralizing to realize that a lot of PhD candidates are expended to churn out data for grant apps, or "sacrificed" for impossible pet projects.<br /><br />I would advise anyone considering grad school to carefully take the temperature of the PI and lab environment. If lab members take 8 years to graduate, if the advisor has a bad reputation - then find another lab. In the end, your PhD will mean more than the project itself.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-57672240935312833352013-01-08T16:16:33.140-05:002013-01-08T16:16:33.140-05:00I'm the Anon at 10:45 am above. I now work as...I'm the Anon at 10:45 am above. I now work as a manager. I was never given management training, I sought it out. Every university I've attended has had a business management school that has offered classes and workshops to students, faculty and staff in other programs. The large company for whom I used to work did the same for all science staff, as do a number of professional societies. These classes were/are never mandatory and were/are offered as professional development. I imagine the majority of PIs delete the emails announcing them. <br /><br />I have observed that most PIs demand their employees to just work it out. This often leads to escalation. <br /><br />Unstable Isotope, I can't give any details because the poisoning I saw made the news (5+ years ago, but still). The poisoning was intentional and the person involved was caught and prosecuted. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-1653134016544878402013-01-08T15:56:01.352-05:002013-01-08T15:56:01.352-05:00I believe every PI should get some sort of managem...I believe every PI should get some sort of management training. However, the attitude of 'this is how I did it, this is how you will do it' will have to be dropped before that will be of any use. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-22030388071801319082013-01-08T12:07:13.050-05:002013-01-08T12:07:13.050-05:00My 3rd year PhD mental health breakdown was the be...My 3rd year PhD mental health breakdown was the best thing that ever happened to me. Research was failing, and my relationship broke down. <br /><br />And a year later after a year which I mostly remember the alcohol drugs, and sex...I ended up a motivational coach. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-22804422597555941862013-01-08T09:54:53.039-05:002013-01-08T09:54:53.039-05:00I am the Anonymous from 6:50 AM. A support system ...I am the Anonymous from 6:50 AM. A support system was essential! They were current grad students, most of them in other fields. We could talk to each other, understand our problems, so that helped a lot! Definitely, take the time to create a support network of reliable friends, even if it adds a year to your grad school, it is worth it, it will see you through.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-12064903862406295142013-01-08T09:50:39.424-05:002013-01-08T09:50:39.424-05:00I don't see anything here specific to Chemistr...I don't see anything here specific to Chemistry. A lot of grad students I have talked to, go through this phase in every field. Yes, the experimental sciences makes things even harder. I am in a computational field of study, and I almost quit the program in my mid-years. I had a failing research project, I thought of myself as a failure, I was going through the motions, but couldn't really fruitfully do the thinking for the research for almost a year. I had an advisor who was well-intentioned but never available. I was basically on my own, trying to chalk out my own problems, writing up, etc. I was 100% sure I was going to quit. The sad part is that as this was happening I didn't even realize it could be depression. It really was. I was very lucky to have a very supportive group of friends, sharing my frustration with them, hearing theirs, that helped me through. Now, as I'm wrapping up my Ph.D., I approach my research with a lot more confidence. Sadly, some other friends of mine, didn't recover from the what I call the mid-year lows. If there is one advice I can give grad students, it will be go out of your way to create a network of people around you, share your frustrations, and your shortcomings with them, it will help you through. DO NOT be afraid of judgement, if talking to someone outside your field makes it better, cultivate such a group of friends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com