tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post527530661039326003..comments2024-03-29T09:05:29.819-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: Is graduate school in chemistry bad for your mental health? Part 5Chemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-90554594033207802472014-08-18T07:41:26.172-04:002014-08-18T07:41:26.172-04:00Wow. I wish I had you as my supervisor Dave. My su...Wow. I wish I had you as my supervisor Dave. My supervisor wanted me to fail, cuss me out, tell me I am incapable finishing the program even though I won a teaching award and had a publication. Needless to say, I was forced out with my PhD and now I am searching for answers. I am completely discouraged and disenchanted with life. I digress. My supervisor and I did not work well work together because he is the hostile combative type and I am not. I will be eating it for a while. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-17408517442743543762013-12-04T14:09:18.693-05:002013-12-04T14:09:18.693-05:00Thank you for such a well written article. It’s f...Thank you for such a well written article. It’s full of insightful information and entertaining descriptions. Your point of view is the best among many.<br /><a title="https://www.rebelmouse.com/visionwithoutglassespdf/" href="http://www.rebelmouse.com/visionwithoutglassespdf/" rel="nofollow">https://www.rebelmouse.com/visionwithoutglassespdf/</a><br />Akmos17https://www.blogger.com/profile/05240352827056253990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-69417838999501661022013-12-03T22:41:12.096-05:002013-12-03T22:41:12.096-05:00Thanks for the blog post buddy! Keep them coming.....Thanks for the blog post buddy! Keep them coming...<br /><a title="https://www.rebelmouse.com/eatdrinkandshrink/" href="http://www.rebelmouse.com/eatdrinkandshrink/" rel="nofollow">https://www.rebelmouse.com/eatdrinkandshrink/</a><br />Akmos17https://www.blogger.com/profile/05240352827056253990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-52264449371539258012013-12-03T16:03:27.789-05:002013-12-03T16:03:27.789-05:00very interesting post.this is my first time visit ...very interesting post.this is my first time visit here.i found so mmany interesting stuff in your blog especially its discussion..thanks for the post!<br /><a title="https://www.rebelmouse.com/dramamethodaaronfox/" href="http://www.rebelmouse.com/dramamethodaaronfox/" rel="nofollow">https://www.rebelmouse.com/dramamethodaaronfox/</a><br />Akmos17https://www.blogger.com/profile/05240352827056253990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-28592031961201821942013-03-21T03:47:02.889-04:002013-03-21T03:47:02.889-04:00Although my MS and PhD are in Analytical Chemistry...Although my MS and PhD are in Analytical Chemistry, I've enjoyed reading these 5 posts, so thanks guys!<br /><br />I tend to agree with the "contrarian" question raised in Part 4. I entered grad school with a very naive mindset. Looking back, the most important thing is to view each prospective PI as a CEO: each runs his company differently. My advisor was from China, PhD in the US, worked as a group leader at a national lab, then came back to University. My first 2.5 years he wasn't tenured and spent most of his money on a European postdoc since he was the expert and my PI was venturing into something he wasn't an expert in. (The risk did pay off in the end). We all TAed and it was made clear that we put in 55-60 hours and show on Saturday. He was fairly strict, but once tenure was achieved, he became a great advisor. On the other hand, another very successful Chinese Analytical PI had all Chinese students, and the Chinese students in my group told me they even had group meeting in Chinese! And this happened at the #3 Analytical Chemistry graduate program west of the Mississippi (according to the Professors). This made me appreciate my advisor all the more, because he wouldn't even speak Chinese in a one-on-one office meeting with a Chinese student.<br /><br />I would advise folks to read a book on establishing good boundaries before graduate school. The best book I've read is "Boundaries" by 2 PhD psychologists in SoCal (this is from a biblical perspective, mind you). In my experience, I've overheard many a conversation of chemists trumping each other's work hour woes ("I work 65 hours a week!"... "Well I work 75 hours!"). But this is done in a braggadocious manner, without realizing they're bragging about allowing someone (their PI) to take advantage of them. I've ran into many Debbie Downers ("If you want a job you should just quit with a Masters" etc). Many chemists seem to enjoy reveling in their self-imposed victim-status, it's a thing we've all done in our lives at some point because it makes us feel better. Chemistry complainers chose to enter a field supersaturated with well-educated chemists looking for far fewer available jobs. Combine that with unhealthy boundaries, them failing to come to grips that they are adults and not just students, and are a mere 2 or 3 years from being peers with their advisor, and you get someone who had a nightmarish/difficult/depressing PhD experience. Once I passed my oral exam, I took an older graduate student/mentor's advice and was straight up with my PI: "My plan is to finish in under 5 years. How can I accomplish that successfully where we both get what we need?" (I finished in 4 years, 11 months). If you consider your advisor a dictator and could never approach him/her and say such a thing, you simply chose poorly. If it was pride that led you down the prestige path, I wouldn't listen long to your complaining.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-19936155337270728272013-01-14T10:33:53.047-05:002013-01-14T10:33:53.047-05:00"I have what I call BYOB--Be Your Own Boss. T..."I have what I call BYOB--Be Your Own Boss. That means the weekend is yours to experiment without my supervision"<br /><br />My, how generousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-9466089258768197252013-01-14T07:16:54.960-05:002013-01-14T07:16:54.960-05:00I've been keeping the tone of my own comments ...I've been keeping the tone of my own comments on here civil, but anon 5:18 is pretty close to my honest opinion on the topic. That said, I was surprised to see how many people on here described mental breakdowns in spite of a supportive advisor - seems like there are serious systemic problems if that can happen. Looking back, even my friends with nice PI's were often miserable - I realize some individual situations won't work out, but the proportion of unhappy people was awfully high, and included those with good and bad advisors.<br /><br />If the culture were changed to group efforts, like in industry, people would make more progress in less hours. When I was in grad school, I saw how fast computers and electronics were advancing, and I had a mental picture of some frightened engineer putting in 100-hour weeks while cowering in fear of a tyrannical boss. Now I know they do that with large teams, not by scaring people to death. I look back at everything I've done in industry, and I realize a grad student working alone in any of these areas would have wasted the first 4 years figuring out the basics, while I had co-workers who quickly got me up to speed in each new job.<br /><br />My own experience in grad school was pretty wretched, but looking back, I think my PI wanted me to leave but didn't want to fire me, so he decided to try to make me quit. I wish he'd just asked me to leave instead of making my last year or so pure hell. I might keep it more civil than the above commenter, but when it comes to supporting academia either as a decision-maker in industry or as a voter, I can't forget my own experiences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-16415397609400218912013-01-13T14:33:51.902-05:002013-01-13T14:33:51.902-05:00You must have failed badly or had a miserable expe...You must have failed badly or had a miserable experience. I feel sorry for you. I had a good advisor and a productive problem. I had a family and was so poor I once scraped mararoni from under the sink to make a meal on the day before payday. But it all worked out, and I've had a rewarding career ever since. (Only a part of it in academia, though.) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-1542092385830844532013-01-13T14:29:16.357-05:002013-01-13T14:29:16.357-05:00Good advice, especially #2. The choice of an advis...Good advice, especially #2. The choice of an advisor is the most important decision you'll make in your career, and you don't want someone else to make it for you. Contact a prospective advisor, if possible, long before you start grad school. Make sure you're personally and professionally compatiable. <br /><br />And be honest with yourself. If you're a very smart, but laid-back person who likes to come into work at 11 and work until 11 pm, you don't want an advisor who insists that everyone be at their desk by 8 am sharp. If you treasure your weekends or have a family, don't miss their best years by spending 16/7 in the lab. If you're a single minded seeker of success and prestige, you know where to look. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-92028567361053683792013-01-13T14:18:18.330-05:002013-01-13T14:18:18.330-05:00You can always get rid of a bad advisor if he is u...You can always get rid of a bad advisor if he is unlikely to give you a good reference or if his passing makes you feel better. And poisoning people is fairly easy once you put your mind to it. But either way, you will still need to update your resume and start looking againmilkshakenhttp://orgprepdaily.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-11944494491526382082013-01-13T13:33:02.890-05:002013-01-13T13:33:02.890-05:00So the general consensus is that if you chose a ba...So the general consensus is that if you chose a bad lab and are miserable, just suck it up or leave, because it's all your fault instead of the advisor sharing some of the blame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-45510590187108619502013-01-13T12:44:04.703-05:002013-01-13T12:44:04.703-05:00Pedestal? I think sounds like fairly sound advice ...Pedestal? I think sounds like fairly sound advice (Thanks Dave) with only possible problem I see is most people who need these words are at that age where rarely know themselves well enough to realize how to follow well. One topic in the series underlying mental health have not seen much commented on is there can be a lack of maturity in many chem grads, some who chose grad school because do not know yet what to do with their life's. Immature people can be less able handle stress but on the other hand proper environment and guidance can provide growth in maturity.<br /><br />Toxic world of academia? What schools did you attend and what company do you work for as most Pharma has equal issues. I have been critical of universities not turning out students that are adequately prepared for working in Industry but pointed to blame Industry for not working together to redefine how to improve that situation.<br />CMCguyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-90900881327004506072013-01-12T23:51:02.267-05:002013-01-12T23:51:02.267-05:00Thank you! As a current graduate student trying to...Thank you! As a current graduate student trying to decide on a lab to do my thesis it is nice to know that if I chose a lab in biochemistry, I am not committing to biochemistry in post doc and the rest of my life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-63485161307876662682013-01-12T20:42:38.527-05:002013-01-12T20:42:38.527-05:00Please attempt civility. The magic word that you u...Please attempt civility. The magic word that you used was "you." Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-60799948037146180592013-01-12T20:18:01.936-05:002013-01-12T20:18:01.936-05:00You know what Dave? You get off your pedestal. You...You know what Dave? You get off your pedestal. You know that you are where you are off of the backs of the grad students you and others like you exploit every day. The best decision I ever made is to leave the toxic world of academia, and I will make sure my company never supports any of you modern slavedrivers. The whole thing is a giant Ponzi scheme and you all know it. Don't go to grad school!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-44739733536105820842013-01-12T19:04:14.449-05:002013-01-12T19:04:14.449-05:00Wandered over to see what you guys talk about. I h...Wandered over to see what you guys talk about. I have some advice for the undergrads and grads looking at the next level:<br /><br />(1) As an undergrad, look for an environment in which you will flourish. Some may like edgy but others may like nourishing. Ask the tough question, answer it honestly, and then pick the school carefully.<br /><br />(2) Pick your advisor carefully. Advisors can't begin to get a read on you--your hopes and dreams, skills, attitude. You have plenty of data on them, however. Again, ask the tough questions and then listen to the answers. Ask current group members what life is like. Don't settle for good enough. Find a home. If it is a bad student-advisor match, you are largely to blame. <br /><br />(3) Once in grad school and presuming you and your advisor share similar views on life, cut out the worthless stuff and focus on what is important. Grad school is not a 9-5 (or shouldn't be). With that said, life shouldn't suck either. <br /><br />(4) Read and then read some more. If you are feeling at all stale, it is likely you have morphed into too much of a lab rat and not enough scholar. I'm guessing many went to grad school because of the scholarship. Feed the beast. If your advisor doesn't want you reading, then take a brief moment and go back and look at points 1 and 2. I had a now-famous chemist tell me that I saved him from leaving grad school with that sermon given to him when he was a grad student at a Gordon Conference. He was in the dump, but went home and started reading. He is now a prof at a top-five school. One of his colleagues worked for me and almost left college until he joined the group. I made the same mistake myself for a brief time in grad school. In case you missed it, read! <br /><br />(5) I have what I call BYOB--Be Your Own Boss. That means the weekend is yours to experiment without my supervision. Alas, it is way underutilized, but it could be a great thing. It's a chance to actually make progress with the advisor out of the way. <br /><br />(6) Grad school should be serious immersion (see part 3). That is not to say, however, that it shouldn't be a blast. If it's not, then figure out why and try to fix it. <br /><br />(7) Now for those looking to do postdocs: pick them just as carefully. In this instance, however, you should view it as complementary bordering on total do-over. Floyd Romesberg left my group with hardly a whiff of biology and went to Schultz. He is unrecognizable. Anne McNeil went to Swager. I've had students go to NASA, polymer groups, Intel, bioinorganic, transition metal organometallic, total synthesis, neurophysiology,.... you name it. Don't just sign up with somebody who looks just like your current boss to prove your worth as an indentured servent. Do something different. Do something complementary. Do what you now WISH you had done four or five years ago. It's scary, but it will work just fine. But don't forget, match personalities. <br /><br />(8) Life in my group is, relatively, low pressure. That is not to say, however, that there aren't standards. I simply ask people to go if they can't be successful without beatings. I tell students up front what I expect and what they should expect. Many graduate without a single tongue lashing. That is the ideal. <br /><br />That's all folks. It's just my two cents worth but maybe it will help.<br /><br />Regards<br />DaveDave Collumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-49647812622246262492013-01-12T00:38:58.525-05:002013-01-12T00:38:58.525-05:00One could argue that the risk of SEAL trainees hav...One could argue that the risk of SEAL trainees having mental breakdowns is outweighed by their importance to national security. Risking that for a chemistry PhD, probably not worth it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-79500886028487442522013-01-11T19:38:39.948-05:002013-01-11T19:38:39.948-05:00Great series guys. You brought up a lot of suppres...Great series guys. You brought up a lot of suppressed memories. I promised myself that I would always remember what grad school was like but of course I didn't, now almost 18 years later. That being said, I do not regret for one minute having done a PhD. It has been very rewarding for me.<br /><br />So my story is the exact opposite. My supervisor was already established and nearing the end of his career. He spent 80% of his time in school administrative stuff and didn't spend much time with his students. This is just as stressful as a PI that is all over you. My project was floundering and I am eternally grateful to a postdoc in the group who recognized what was happening and pulled me up by my bootstraps. It got me back on track and we are still great friends to this day.<br /><br />Despite how hard grad school was, the closest I ever came to a nervous breakdown was the all hands meeting called soon after my big pharma company was bought by another, headquartered on 42nd St. in Manhattan. My entire life planning came crashing down in 10 minutes...many of you have been there, thinking about mortgages, car payments, student loans, kids, pensions, etc. Much more was at stake now than back then. While my career has recovered quite nicely, it did leave scars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-27456356360896093262013-01-11T16:43:38.653-05:002013-01-11T16:43:38.653-05:00I agree grad school stress isn't the same as t...I agree grad school stress isn't the same as that experienced by a SEAL, but at least some students are experiencing stress at high levels, and the question is whether those levels are too high. Partly I tried to say that, since no one is about to die, there's no reason to make it into a moral imperative to run reactions at the expense of everything else in your life.<br /><br />Other than that, I gather that we have very different ideas about humanity, or people's capacity for compassion.<br /><br />Thanks for your response.jfreebonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-56267288745225649992013-01-11T16:31:35.865-05:002013-01-11T16:31:35.865-05:00"Being a chemist at DOW or Pfizer is not equi..."Being a chemist at DOW or Pfizer is not equivalent to being a Navy SEAL, or even an ER doctor."<br /><br />No, but I also don't think the training is nearly as stressful. Grad school had it's moments, but I'll take quenching LiAlH4 over live fire training or having to decide in a split second whether to give some patient a shock to restart their heart.<br /><br />" Can anyone point to any evidence that the types and amounts of stress presented to graduate students results in them being better scientists?". No, but i assume that one can't rigourously point to the converse either. I may well be wrong on this.<br /><br />"The idea that the fields are so competitive that no one can be afforded to be treated like a human being is absurd". Have a look at human history over the past few hundred years. I'm pretty sure ppl are treated better now (at least in NA/Europe) than ever before: at least no graduate chemistry departments are shrouded by nets to prevent jumping. Sad fact is, overall we're just not that nice to each other. I'm not implying this should be an excuse to be a jerk, which seems a common thread in these posts, but I don't think civility is an overall trait of humanity. <br /><br />bboooooyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-56196098815007452632013-01-11T16:09:13.571-05:002013-01-11T16:09:13.571-05:00Being a chemist at DOW or Pfizer is not equivalent...Being a chemist at DOW or Pfizer is not equivalent to being a Navy SEAL, or even an ER doctor. Can anyone point to any evidence that the types and amounts of stress presented to graduate students results in them being better scientists?<br /><br />Of course students will be distressed at times and must learn to cope with the expectations on them. That is called life. But I fail to see why the PI or department cannot provide more active help in this regard. Simply saying they can always go to a student assistance program when it gets bad enough isn't really a solution to a problem that seems to be fairly well identified in CJ's and Vinylogous's posts. (But people should still seek help when needed!)<br /><br />The idea that the fields are so competitive that no one can be afforded to be treated like a human being is absurd. It's part of the same sink-or-swim braggadocio that runs rife through the sciences.<br /><br />I don't think it's a problem for a PI to clearly state each student should put in 70 hrs/wk in lab, and even stipulate certain core hours. As long as expectations are clear, those seem fair. But when the PI is cancelling lab dinner meetings or otherwise intruding in a students life outside the lab, that's an unacceptable overreach.jfreebonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-35300211772763891632013-01-11T14:44:58.471-05:002013-01-11T14:44:58.471-05:00"what purpose does it serve to put young scie..."what purpose does it serve to put young scientists/physicians through this amount of stress?"<br /><br />I think it prepares them for the reality of BEING a scientist/physician. These are tough fields (as are many others), and no one cares how hard you try.bboooooyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-71900338351529753992013-01-11T13:51:03.832-05:002013-01-11T13:51:03.832-05:00Your concern is in the right place, but I think yo...Your concern is in the right place, but I think you are asking the wrong question. The right question is much more likely, "Why don't we take care of our mental health problems early on, and keep small problems small?".<br /><br />In the long run, I don't think that we are admitting the wrong people. I think we are not taking care of them by feeling that physical illness is ok, but mental illness is stigmatized, and that's wrong-headed and unsupported by current best medical evidence. Our society needs to realize that it's ok to admit that people sometimes need help getting their shit together, and it's ok to be someone who has to get help to get your shit together.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-69595244263438140852013-01-11T13:50:27.127-05:002013-01-11T13:50:27.127-05:00One issue is that today's job market is so out...One issue is that today's job market is so outrageously competitive for grad students/postdocs/unemployeed experienced scientists/etc. is that there are MANY things that can often times hold you back but can not push you forward. Your advisor, department chair, colleagues, paper quality, university reputation, etc. will not guarantee you a job (as we are taught), however each one can be a deal breaker.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-45862657731187807142013-01-11T13:30:28.353-05:002013-01-11T13:30:28.353-05:00I'm currently a 4th year in a top tier researc...I'm currently a 4th year in a top tier research program, working for a recently tenured, somewhat recognized, professor. This is (and was, even pre-tenure) a fairly relaxed environment. We have some who work 70+ hours/week, but if you are working <50 hours/week, our PI won't say anything about it. In that environment, no one has finished yet (PhD or masters) that hasn't found an industry job or good post-doc position. This may not always be the case...I'm just posting this comment to make people aware that this type of environment is possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com