tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post8165847243665676546..comments2024-03-29T09:05:29.819-04:00Comments on Chemjobber: Unemployed chemists working for free? A bad idea.Chemjobberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-47476789991257937562011-03-30T20:46:19.230-04:002011-03-30T20:46:19.230-04:00"and we are not all unemployed"
just th..."and we are not all unemployed"<br /><br />just the chemists around Sandwich/Kent then?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-38712674855739985492011-03-30T04:49:58.935-04:002011-03-30T04:49:58.935-04:006.46 "Or maybe we should just tax the h*ll ou...6.46 "Or maybe we should just tax the h*ll out of companies, give it to some people who got in over their heads on a McMansion, provide free health care, then wonder why everyone is unemployed"<br /><br />Here in the UK we've managed perfectly well to provide free to access, good quality, healthcare to everyone for over 60 years. And at lower cost per capita than the USA. And we are not all unemployed. I think it is a question of priorities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-87827754720700993742011-03-30T02:09:30.205-04:002011-03-30T02:09:30.205-04:00As far as chemists working for free, there are som...As far as chemists working for free, there are some industry ones going back and doing post-doc stints, I know one right now. Getting paid next to nothing, at some schools there is no health plan either!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-51669428320326272232011-03-29T23:57:44.491-04:002011-03-29T23:57:44.491-04:00Hap, a favorite novel of mine. Really; like "...Hap, a favorite novel of mine. Really; like "been on my bedside table for 2 years" favorite. <br /><br />Who amongst us will be the Boer grandmother?Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-18809210534772693342011-03-29T23:52:20.471-04:002011-03-29T23:52:20.471-04:001) It's only class warfare when the poor want ...1) It's only class warfare when the poor want to screw the rich. When the rich want to screw the poor, it's called the free market. (It wasn't mostly homeowners with McMansions that got the jack of TARP, unless BofA and Lehman Brothers were demoted to living in New Albany.). Guess where that money'll come from when it comes time for payback? Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor, baby.) The labor market doesn't exactly work equally either - if wages threaten to rise to attract workers, it's time to trot out the "we need foreign workers/illegal immigrants to keep going" line so we can keep wages low. The free market is wonderful if the dice are loaded your way.<br /><br />If repatriating profits is the key to jobs, then why the hell aren't the Bahamas leaving us in the dust? (The "double Irish" involved shells there and in Ireland to avoid taxes.) We have plenty of investment money - the problem is people with jobs that generate tax money and consumption. Repatriation of profits only makes it easier to outsource to cheap labor and repatriate for investment to the low tax market - great if you're short on investment, but not necessarily short on jobs. (Investment is supposed to generate jobs down the line, but if you can't make or sell anything, well, than how is investment going to generate jobs? Particularly without the infrastructure taxes support (no education? roads?) and a crippling debt burden.)<br /><br />Singapore is doing well because the gov't is spending craploads to get jobs there, and business knows the trains will run on time, even if there are a few bodies on the tracks.<br /><br />It doesn't seem as if workers and business can play well together - either it's unions supporting the least able and working with the Mob, or businesses screwing their workers hard enough that they'd scream if their mouths weren't superglued shut. No cooperation - Saturn was doing well with that model, but GM had to screw it over, for example. <br /><br />2) When I was looking for a job, temp arrangements were the thing - move somewhere on your dime and work and hope we hire you or you're going to be hurting. It makes some sense to find out what a company is getting, but it does put most of the risk on the potential employee. I guess this is just another iteration, and if the market has lots of chemists in a small area, it might work - but those places are expensive to live in and so hard to support with a nonpaying job and the hope of being hired.<br /><br />3) I think the future you fear is the "Diamond Age" scenario - you are privileged to live here, and if you don't like it, there are two billion Indians and Chinese who will take your place. ("Take your place", in that context, would be literal - no land of your own but just a culture and a network means that your position is totally contingent, and when you lose, you <i>lose</i>.Hapnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-88350279143186547682011-03-29T22:11:36.261-04:002011-03-29T22:11:36.261-04:00Well, 6:46, ironically, doing the opposite of that...Well, 6:46, ironically, doing the opposite of that is what got us to the unemployment situation we had, in case you've forgotten. <br />Also, there is usually class warfare going on, it's just a rare case when the people in the bottom/middle(when it exists) realize it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-92076233653769879102011-03-29T21:58:53.223-04:002011-03-29T21:58:53.223-04:00A6:52p: Fair enough; and I'm terribly pleased ...A6:52p: Fair enough; and I'm terribly pleased that I've written enough that I have "issues" of my own. :-) <br /><br />It's something that's kind of frightening, but hopefully will not happen to us.Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-53257207146352718322011-03-29T21:52:37.180-04:002011-03-29T21:52:37.180-04:00File this post under class warfare. Looking at th...File this post under class warfare. Looking at the comment thread it's not exactly a chemistry specific or a "chemjobber" issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-42085204654013444712011-03-29T21:46:54.486-04:002011-03-29T21:46:54.486-04:00Or maybe we should just tax the h*ll out of compan...Or maybe we should just tax the h*ll out of companies, give it to some people who got in over their heads on a McMansion, provide free health care, then wonder why everyone is unemployed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-20697591548230275222011-03-29T21:45:30.531-04:002011-03-29T21:45:30.531-04:006:03:
How do you think Singapore attracts jobs? T...6:03:<br />How do you think Singapore attracts jobs? Through favorable tax policies. Stop penalizing companies who want to repatriate money in the US, and there will be job creation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-30448836113671786722011-03-29T21:03:50.728-04:002011-03-29T21:03:50.728-04:003:49,
Your assertion makes no sense. Companies wit...3:49,<br />Your assertion makes no sense. Companies with no loyalty to country took jobs to places they can pay slave wages, without covering anyone's health care, dump waste anywhere they like, and wait for the year and a half of "untapped markets" before they're nationalized. Marginal tax rates are almost entirely irrelevant to the conversation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-14032310124036986272011-03-29T21:03:03.855-04:002011-03-29T21:03:03.855-04:00It'll probably take a while for the chemistry ...It'll probably take a while for the chemistry world to get as bad as publishing is, but, realistically it's not surprising. When unemployment gets bad enough in a field people will be desperate to take an internship that MIGHT get them an in rather than not having anything.<br /><br />Or there's always the approach to be a govt chemist and try to get ahead through insider trading. You and pipeline should both like this one:<br /><br />http://www.businessinsider.com/cheng-yi-liang-2011-3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-74651324825319391892011-03-29T20:38:41.017-04:002011-03-29T20:38:41.017-04:00Even an obviously bad idea is worth a shot. Exuber...Even an obviously bad idea is worth a shot. Exubera?Quagmirenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-66573062416765156912011-03-29T18:49:33.763-04:002011-03-29T18:49:33.763-04:00Allow companies to repatriate their money to the U...Allow companies to repatriate their money to the US without taxing them (or taxing at reduced rates) and the jobs will come back.<br /><br />Oops. Obama already put the kabash on that one. Guess all that money will have to stay overseas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-22996613699288571022011-03-29T16:25:04.442-04:002011-03-29T16:25:04.442-04:00@12:38
It's not exactly Capitalism either, it...@12:38<br /><br />It's not exactly Capitalism either, it's a warped version of something ... and cronyism is really what is ingrained in my mind.<br /><br />When apple can't sell enough ipods to keep their shareholders happy when compared to the Ponzi scheme that is the financial sector (banks, insurance, pay day lending). I mean, it almost doesn't make sense to say that "outsourcing" is the source of all our ills.<br /><br />This is not just restricted to chemistry, talk to an engineer ...<br /><br />Of course, if no one can afford to hire a plumber or an electrician for lack of real income that comes with the demise of the middle class, I'm not exactly sure what is a safe career choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-58207154816032979862011-03-29T15:38:03.261-04:002011-03-29T15:38:03.261-04:00@6:39
It's not communism, it's supply and...@6:39<br /><br />It's not communism, it's supply and demand.<br /><br />With the rise of countries like India and China, the supply of cheaper labor went through the roof. Why hire a new PhD whose total compensation package costs a big company ~$250K or so when you can hire 5-7 chemists externally? This is especially hard for those of us working in Pharma right now. They may not have the experience and know-how we do, but they sure can throw numbers at a project at a rate cheaper than we can. It's combi-chem with people, basically.<br /><br />The days of skilled associate level chemists, once the backbone of any project, is pretty much over. Now we've got ChemPartner and WuXi<br /><br />Truth is, being a skilled plumber or electrician is a better career choice than an advanced degreed chemist right now, and probably for the foreseeable future. Can't outsource those jobs...You're Pfizerednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-68563055473541764922011-03-29T11:06:31.642-04:002011-03-29T11:06:31.642-04:00I find the GSK proposal underwhelming. Worst-case ...I find the GSK proposal underwhelming. Worst-case scenario: you're going to get poor work, poorly understood.Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-32824431718662129972011-03-29T10:06:27.754-04:002011-03-29T10:06:27.754-04:00Hey Anon 6:28, yes GSK did announce this scheme re...Hey Anon 6:28, yes GSK did announce this scheme recently (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeffrandall/8355278/Paying-for-young-boffins-isnt-rocket-science.html). <br /><br />Sadly you can be certain that 90% of these 'hires' will be business/sales/IT. Anything but science basically. <br /><br />Big pharma love pulling the wool over the eyes of thick journalists looking for an easy headline.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-57258727946854241212011-03-29T09:39:41.251-04:002011-03-29T09:39:41.251-04:00The fact that people are routinely not compensated...The fact that people are routinely not compensated or under-compensated for very hard skilled labor, reminds of another economic system, where everyone gets paid exactly the same. Ironically, it didn't come from those "big brother socialists."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-25569266242740080362011-03-29T09:37:15.057-04:002011-03-29T09:37:15.057-04:00Pharma COs in the US are already doing this, to a ...Pharma COs in the US are already doing this, to a point, by paying institutions (usually a decent upfront) for rights to first refusal of technology. NVS did this at Scripps a few years back (I don't think anything came of it), and I am sure others are ongoing.<br /><br />Also diabolical, is industrial post docs in academic labs. From my experience, this is typically via a start-up the prof is involved in and uses PDFs or even grad students to work on. Great for the company that gets dirt cheap labor, less good for the PDFs who won't have any papers to put on CV when it comes time to search for a real job.<br /><br />Regarding "Rather than pay an incoming PhD $100K+, offer a job at $75K". Welcome to the inevitable equilibration of globalization. Salaries in PRC/India will rise as salaries in the US fall. Reality is, most scientific work is grunt work (washing glassware, heating compound X with Y in solvent c). A company only needs a small percentage of "thinkers" to get a lot of work done with cheaper hands.bbooooooyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-9289811915483083712011-03-29T09:34:09.851-04:002011-03-29T09:34:09.851-04:00http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/chemistry/news/glaxosm...http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/chemistry/news/glaxosmithklinecollaborateswithuniversityofnottinghamchemists.aspxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-16714227162392384772011-03-29T09:28:26.343-04:002011-03-29T09:28:26.343-04:00Anon 6:04, didn't GSK also start some initiati...Anon 6:04, didn't GSK also start some initiative offering to help pay students' tuition? Not like it matters since they're shuttering all their UK sites so there won't be jobs for any of the graduates. At least they'll be able to say they were "paid" by GSK for a little while.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-19249289589020711752011-03-29T09:11:27.555-04:002011-03-29T09:11:27.555-04:00A6:04a: More details, please? Interns / grad stude...A6:04a: More details, please? Interns / grad students?Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-82056946135204634352011-03-29T09:04:33.486-04:002011-03-29T09:04:33.486-04:00This already exists in chemistry. GSK is using un...This already exists in chemistry. GSK is using unpaid labour in the UK - students at Nottingham University.<br /><br />Sad but true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8964719845369935777.post-9282267207064953502011-03-29T09:02:28.299-04:002011-03-29T09:02:28.299-04:00A (possibly stupid) comparison/calibration: 75k is...A (possibly stupid) comparison/calibration: 75k is 25k more than the median household income in the US. <br /><br />Problem is, of course, that according to YP's hypo, it takes 5.5 years grad school + 2 years postdoc to get there.Chemjobberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932113680515602275noreply@blogger.com