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| Poster of "The Railway Men" Credit: Wikipedia |
"Do people in the US still learn about the Bhopal disaster (in a not specialized course) or has it been memory holed?"
First, I want to quibble with the premise. As someone who basically remembers quite a bit about middle school and high school, I genuinely don't understand the concept of 'the memory hole' - we don't live in a world where facts are destroyed, so what do you mean? Do people mean "people forget about stuff" or do people mean "this fact that I think is important isn't talked about enough, in my opinion" or do people mean "this bit of news has been deliberately suppressed"?
The other question is "what do you mean, 'learn (in a not specialized course)'"? We don't really have a place for learning about industrial disasters, other than history courses, and we don't really tend to cover industrial disasters in regular history courses, which tend to be about the formation of nation-states and the history of their governments. Chernobyl, for example, is a pretty grim instance of a Soviet-era industrial disaster, and the only place I could imagine seeing it in a US history course is in the "late Cold War" section as a part of the demise of the Soviet Union. While I consumed article after article in National Geographic about Chernobyl, I imagine that the average high schooler these days gets about 10 minutes.
Setting that aside, I noted that I felt like the Bhopal disaster gets talked about in organic chemistry. I feel like, but I don't exactly remember, that I learned about methyl isocyanate either in undergrad, but definitely in graduate school. I have become quite the enthusiast about the work product of the Chemical Safety Board, so I certainly remember watching the Bayer CropScience video, which also talked about Bhopal. I'm probably both the exact right person to make the query ('is our children learning about Bhopal?') and exactly the wrong person to answer the question.
So, reader - some questions for you:
- How old are you? (You can be vague)
- Did you learn about the Bhopal incident?
- When did you learn about it? Random reading, or in a class?
- Did you learn about methyl isocyanate in organic chemistry?
- If you're a professor of chemistry, have you taught about Bhopal? If so, what do you say?
I remember hearing about it on the news, as a kid (I'm in my late 40s). I also remember it being discussed in a chemistry class somewhere along the line, but only briefly. I would imagine that chemical engineers would be taught about it more explicitly.
ReplyDelete1) Low 50s.
ReplyDelete2) Yes.
3) I was in high school and my history teacher got Time magazine and I remember seeing it there. It's also been brought up on ITP and discussed.
4) I don't remember learning much about isocyanates at all in organic chemistry.
I think chemistry has been more careful about discussing chemical failures, but I don't know if the failures are addressed well by companies because safety costs money and no one wants to spend it if they don't have to (or if they're conscience-unburdened enough, if they get away without doing it). CSB videos have been useful, and I wonder if they have or would do a video about it. - Hap
I learned about it, I think from watching the US CSB's youtube channel, though I think I'd heard about it years before. Probably not in a glass though.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember if I learned about methyl isocyanate in class, I wasn't that good at organic chemistry and have forgotten most of it.
As to what they mean by memory-holed. The US education system has a reputation internationally for...forgetting to teach some facts that make the US look bad. The famous ones I can think of are not addressing the genocide of the first nations peoples (or claiming it wasn't the settlers fault they died), not teaching about the fact it was the CIA that overthrew the democratic government of Argentina and helped install the brutal military dictatorship that followed, and so forth. So not including the fact a US chemical company caused thousands of deaths in India would certainly fall into those lines, though I agree I'm not sure where you would teach it.
I'm in my mid-40s. I didn't learn about the Bhopal disaster in school (public through grad school). I learned about it via random reading; I'm pretty sure it was in World Book Encyclopedia, though it may have been in a kid's science book. I think I was in late elementary or junior high school when I first read of it.
ReplyDeleteThe only real encounter I had with organic chemistry was the two-course sequence in undergrad chemistry major (in US). As someone not working in that area, I only recall bits and pieces; I don't *think* we covered methyl isocyanate. I do remember talking about thalidomide when we covered stereochemistry, though.
I'm 31 and a current organic chem prof at a PUI. I've never heard of it.
ReplyDeleteI'm in my early 30's and I didn't learn about it until grad school. I'm a faculty member at a PUI now and I teach about it in my organic lectures. The textbook that we use (Mullins, published by Pearson) has a discussion on Bhopal as part of the chapter on green chemistry, which I think is very good.
ReplyDelete1) Let's just say 'of a certain age'
ReplyDelete2) Yes
3) On the CBC radio when it happened
4) Not in particular
I hate sounding conspiratorial, but I do wonder if internet searching is manipulated (TBF, I have no idea what motive is). I was recently looking for an article predicting consequences of global warming from the 80s that I had cited previously but was unable to find it. DK if I just looked poorly or if it truly wasn't as easy to find. This, from the late 80s, has always stuck with me:
[Outro: Jello Biafra]
What they're trying to do with radio, with this, uh, McCarran-Walter Act and a lot of other ways, is start by saying that they're protecting the public from wicked rock bands, or girlie magazines, or whatever. But, if you follow the chain of dominoes that falls down what they're really trying to do is shut off our access to information itself
If they can't do it by law they know there's other ways to do it
I am old enough to have lived through and remember the news cycle about it. It was everywhere in the media. I think the question gets to the point "does the USA teach information that reflects poorly on the USA". I learned about bay of pigs, My Lai, racism to especially to blacks but also to irish and italians, the tuskegee syphilis experiments, and much more. But I think it is typical of countries not to teach about past problems...I live in Sweden now and my kids learned that the Swedish Vikings were peace loving traders. They were not taught about the Swedish bloodbath or the Vipeholm experiments. They did not study the continuous wars sweden was in the 1600-1700s. I am sure most countries focus on the good of their countries and not the bad. Germany is the only one I know of that really puts their bad past front and center to teach to their kids.
ReplyDelete1. I'm approximately 30.
ReplyDelete2. Yes, I did learn about the incident.
3. I'm not sure where I heard about it. I suspect it was through reading Wikipedia, maybe when I was doing my PhD in organic chem (though I didn't use isocyanates in my syntheses), or maybe when I moved to analytical chem in an environmental contract lab and had to test for isocyanates (including MIC) in personal air samplers.
4. It may have been mentioned in lectures, but I definitely don't remember it. I don't think that we looked at the reactivity of isocyanates. I do remember being lectured about Karen Wetterhahn's story though in undergrad.
5. Though I'm a GC/LC chemist by trade, I also do two lectures a year at my old university (a Group of Eight uni in Australia) on environmental pollutants for a masters course, and haven't mentioned Bhopal because I didn't consider MIC a 'persistent' enough pollutant (the material mostly focuses on Stockholm Convention stuff and PFAS). But maybe now that you mention it, I'll include it in next year's lectures...
I'm 33. I have a MS in organic chemistry. I've never heard of the Bhopal disaster and I only recall a couple sessions of chemical safety training being offered to graduate students.
ReplyDelete1) Late 20s.
ReplyDelete2) Yes.
3) Several times during my undergraduate degree but I don't remember the exact times. At least once in the process control course where process safety was constantly reinforced, and in a engineering ethics course where we looked at a variety of engineering disasters and why they happened. While Bhopal was not examined, the chemical kinetics course would highlight a few failures of reactors, such as thermal runaways and uncharacterized side reactions. During one of my internships, the group meeting at this company would start by watching a CSB video -- not the whole thing, but relevant portions.
4) Maybe, but I don't remember.
5) Not a professor, much less one in chemistry. But I try to highlight the value of understanding kinetics for safe processing and reactor modelling to my undergraduates.
While I don't know the chemist's viewpoint, but I can verify Jordan's comment above where this is a big aspect of chemical engineering education. At least, in my experience, process safety was weaved into many courses. Can't comment on my current institution as I haven't TA'd that much.
1. early 40s
ReplyDelete2. Yes
3. I don't think I learned about it in university although I don't remember for sure. I think it's more likely that I learned about it in a safety course at work
4. Yes, probably
Double entry:
ReplyDelete50. General reading, never through coursework. Too long ago to recall if we covered isocyanates in class!
My son is 20. They covered it in one of his chemical engineering classes. But nothing in general education materials.
In HS, the history classes had a tough time getting to Vietnam War. Ran out of time! College general eductation classes (non major) were either specific to a particualr theme or broad surveys. Had no dicussion of anything like this in those.
1. Mid-forties
ReplyDelete2. Yes
3. As an undergraduate. Was actually making methyl isocyanate for my research project. Before I started (with supervision and tons of precautions), a graduate student mentioned the disaster off hand.
4. No, not in any formal class organic or otherwise.
5. Isocyanates don't really come up in any of my classes, so no. I don't teach lab classes.
1. Mid 30s
ReplyDelete2. Yes
3. It was definitely covered in a chemical engineering safety class but I believe I knew about it even before then reading on my own
4. No
1) 40s 2)yes.3) randomly in wikipedia looking up the union carbide building 4) did not cover isocyanate dangers in undergrad chem. Was not an organic chemist in grad school. I think the reasons why I didn't cover this in a course were neither sinister or political. I learned many unflattering/critical things about the USA in school. But there is limited time in classes and lots of valuable/interesting stuff doesn't get covered. We didn't learn about the Aberfan disaster. Or Johnstown flood or the Texas City Disaster. We had probably onle 2 pages about the industrial revolution in high school. As a chemistry major the only safety training was basic stuff not to get us killed doing standard undergrad labs.
ReplyDelete1. 36
ReplyDelete2. Yes
3. Reading Wikipedia during my PhD
4. I learned about isocyanates as a functional group but not specifically methyl. I used it at some point in research.
5. Not a prof
I recently listened to a podcast on it. They're biologists so they don't get the chemistry perfect but it's overall very good:
https://thispodcastwillkillyou.com/2023/10/24/ep-127-bhopal-the-1984-union-carbide-disaster/
How old are you? (You can be vague) Mid 60s
ReplyDeleteDid you learn about the Bhopal incident?
When did you learn about it? Random reading, or in a class? Started working at Union Carbide in June 1984, 6 months before the release. Heard about it when I arrived at work that morning and the first reports were coming out on the radio (no internet back then)
Did you learn about methyl isocyanate in organic chemistry? n/a
If you're a professor of chemistry, have you taught about Bhopal? If so, what do you say? n/a
FYI I started watching The Railway Men, couldn't get more than 10 minutes into it. The last straw was the scene with the white American man ordering all of the Indian plant operators back to work and to stop complaining unless they were dying (or something like that). The plant was owned and operated by Union Carbide India, which was 51% owned by UCC US and 49% by the Indian Government. There were no Americans present or running the plant at the time of the incident nor, I believe, for quite some time prior.
How old are you? (You can be vague) - Late 20s
ReplyDeleteDid you learn about the Bhopal incident? Yes
When did you learn about it? Random reading, or in a class? Class in UK high school and UK university (chemistry)
Did you learn about methyl isocyanate in organic chemistry? No, have learned about it at work due to the additional controls required when someone uses isocyanates.