Good morning! Between July 12 and 13, there were 9 new positions posted on the ACS Careers website. Of these, 1 (11%) is academically connected.
Brevard, NC: PharmAgra Labs is really looking for B.S./M.S./Ph.D. organic chemists. (cGMP synthesis experience desired.) Check out this one: "APPLICANT MUST BE AVAILABLE TO START WORK WITHIN 2 WEEKS OF OFFER."
Well, that's emphatic. I have a feeling there may be Chemjobber readers there, so it's gotta be an okay place, right?
UPDATE: David Kroll comments positively on Brevard, NC. "CJ, I see that you followed up on this post but let me just say here that Brevard is an absolutely gorgeous place with a great quality of life. If you're a chemist who is a fan of the outdoors (mountain biking, hiking, clean air), it's tough to beat Brevard on the East Coast. It's not quite high enough to be above the mosquitoes (only 2,231 ft above sea level) but it'll have fewer bugs than where I am in the Research Triangle. You're also only 45 min to the very hip town of Asheville and only 30 min to their airport (which has major airline service).
I'd also add that being in the state and networking with the NC chemistry community might improve one's chances of moving to a chem job with a bigger entity down the road. Moreover, nearby UNC-Asheville and Western Carolina University (in Cullowhee) have a good chemistry programs and are likely to be another source of connections for future jobs and current relationships with academia."
Cleveland, OH: The Lubrizol Corporation desires a M.S./Ph.D. mass spectrometrist; 5+ years experience desired.
Long Island, NY: Pall is a company designing ultra-filtration membranes; they're looking for a Ph.D. chemist with 4+ years experiences.
Chicago, IL: Wrigley is looking for a Ph.D. polymer/organic chemist; 1-3 years experience is necessarily, 5 is desired.
Broader look: Monster, Careerbuilder, Indeed and USAjobs.gov show (respectively) 304, 652, 3,678 and 75 positions for the search term "chemist."
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Wrigley? Like the gum manufacturer?
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like an awesome "real-world apps" type of job for a polymer-leaning scientist...you could chew what you make!
CJ: Regarding the PharmAgra posting, how many of your unemployed readers would scoff at the idea of moving to Brevard, NC for work? Although it isn't as hip as either SanFran or Boston, Transylvania County, NC has a lower cost of living and a temperate climate. Attitudes amongst organic chemists who seek industial positions really need to change...they shouldn't expect to land a dream job in a dream location immediately out of school. Which would you rather do: start building a professional track record at less-than-ideal job or continue indentured academic servitude while waiting for a dream job that everyone else is clamoring for?
ReplyDelete"Attitudes amongst organic chemists who seek industial positions really need to change...they shouldn't expect to land a dream job in a dream location immediately out of school"
ReplyDeleteReally? I think this pretty much sums up why scientists don't get paid as well as MBAs; they have this great attitude of "well, I guess that's good enough". How else can you explain paying a PDF <$50k/year (I'm guessing here, it was abt $30k when I was a pdf) with 9+ years of university? It also helps to explain why starting salaries for chemists have been declining (along with that whole supply/demand thing), they're just willing to put up with crap.
Not sure what breaks this cycle, but advocating settling for less is not helpful.
Checking out the PharmAgra Labs website, they were really playing up the 'domestic advantage' angle. Seems as if the challenges of working with CROs ex-US is becoming a nifty marketing tactic.
ReplyDeleteThe only problem that I've ever heard about some of these API companies is that they can be complete sweat-shops with pretty tough working environments. A colleague looked into a couple of these places after our layoffs a few years back: mediocre pay(compared to his pharma job), very, very tight deadlines and high stress . Then again, aren't we all kinda working like this nowadays?
I'd be curious to see what they are paying. $60-70K for a PhD, I'd bet.
@bbooooooya--
Not sure what breaks this cycle, but advocating settling for less is not helpful.
Problem is that many people's dream jobs no longer exist, especially those who thought a lucrative career in pharma was awaiting them after putting in 5-8 years of hard work. Unless you've got a rich spouse, finding a job that isn't quite your dream is the only reality one faces with an advanced degree in chemistry. For many, even finding that 'settling for less' job isn't easy, especially if you've hit a certain age, like many displaced scientists.
Right now simply finding any job is good enough for many.
Anonymous 10:41
ReplyDeletehow many of your unemployed readers would scoff at the idea of moving to Brevard, NC for work?
I don't think folks would scoff at moving to a place like NC. Lots of people used to live in Kalamazoo, MI, working at Upjohn/Pharmacia/Pfizer then Pfired. That's not exactly a place that's happening, but most folks I met there seemed to like it fine due to the very low cost of living.
I'd bet that PharmAgra gets a whole lot of resumes based on this posting. They want people with experience, though, and chances are they won't be paying top dollar. That's the rub.
The Wikipedia entry for Brevard states that median male income for the city is $26,929 (2000 Census data). Even after adjusting for inflation and cost-of-living, you'd have to think that that $60-70K would go pretty far out there.
ReplyDeleteIt's also located in Transylvania County (!!)
@bbooooooya: Professional schools (MBA, JD, and MD) deliberately limit enrollments in order to maintain the perceived values of their degrees. Recently there have been articles on WSJ and Bloomberg describing law school class size reductions during the economic downturn. Conversely, science programs NEVER seem to have enough labor. They continue to generate a glut of scientists, thus cheapening both the MS and PhD degrees. Fighting for a fair wage is a noble yet futile act when dealing with an outsourcing-eager industry that has its pick of underpriced vendors.
ReplyDelete"I'd bet that PharmAgra gets a whole lot of resumes based on this posting. They want people with experience, though, and chances are they won't be paying top dollar. That's the rub."
ReplyDeletePfizered, here are some hilarious (ridiculous?) anecdotes that I can share:
1. I know a hiring manager at a US-based(!) contract synthesis company. Every week he receives at least 20 spam applications from overseas Chindians, even though his company explicitly states that it won't sponsor visas.
2. I work at an analytical company in what some would call "flyover country". About 3/4 of the wet-lab scientists are Chindians on work visas. I wouldn't be surprised if similar setups can be found in even the most backwater parts of the country. Apparently the Chindians are less picky about job location than your typical US citizen.
3. A grad student acquaintance from my postdoc, who's entering his SEVENTH year WITHOUT any publications, is still under the delusion that he has a remote chance in hell of landing a pharma or biotech job without having to do a postdoc. What else can I do but humor him?
One subject I've wondered about is with all this moving, how often have people had to yank their kids out of school in the past decade and go somewhere else completely? And if so, is it even a big deal?
ReplyDeleteI get the question from this article covering a scientist who had been unemployed for 17 months:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2007/08/05/unemployed_17_months_and_counting/
"I don't think my older daughter - she's 21 - has ever forgiven me for making her move from Pittsburgh when she was in high school."
However, it seems like many scientists I've met don't have kids. So the topic doesn't come up.
@AboutChem - deck is stacked against chemists for having kids. Too much school + too much student debt + lots of moving + long work hours.
ReplyDeleteWe should have all gone in to law or finance.
These days, for a synthetic chemist laid off from pharma (and in my case from academia medchem groups too), the ideal job can be descried as one that satisfies the following criteria:
ReplyDelete1) is it related to synthetic chemistry
2) the research project(s) are of the kind in which one can take pride and have a stake in finding good solutions / making innovation
3) where one is treated as a qualified profesional and a human being, by the management
4) it is some kind of a lab-based research
5) the labs are adequately equipped, one can buy essentials, have access to literature and analytical instrumentation
6) where one makes income good enough to pay rent/mortgage and gets health coverage plus dental
7) one does not have to sell everything, move to a different continent and learn a new alphabet to get the job
"7) one does not have to sell everything, move to a different continent and learn a new alphabet to get the job"
ReplyDelete-it's not that bad. I got the alphabet down, but I'm still having trouble in complex conversation after two years. Don't be such a linguist. Er.... I mean, do't be such an alphabetist.
My "Cyrillic for Dummies" book is helping to hold up my "Mandarin for Employment" tome. :)
ReplyDeleteRecently there have been articles on WSJ and Bloomberg describing law school class size reductions during the economic downturn. Conversely, science programs NEVER seem to have enough labor.
ReplyDeleteThe reason for this, in my mind, is that there is a huge difference between what law students do and what science graduate students do. Law students are there to learn the law and how it works. Science students not only learn about their discipline, but they are the ones actively trying to advance science through experimentation. Graduate students are the ones driving basic scientific exploration in academia, and are responsible for much of the basic science going on.
I'm not saying all of the science is good and wouldn't be missed, but it's not really a great comparison between the two degrees based on what the output is during their time in school.
I wonder if a graduate degree in the sciences cost $100K like most law degrees, if there'd be less graduate students, though.
Law schools have been taking a huge amount of criticism over the last several years for churning out more and more lawyers than the market can handle, especially second and third-tier law schools whose students have absolutely no chance at landing a job that's going to afford them a living and paying back huge money for their JDs. Many law schools are under fire for not being honest with incoming students about their chances at gainful employment after graduation, mainly because law students are fantastic for the bottom line. It's not you need more fume hoods to accommodate them. They take up a few more seats and bring in HUGE money in the form of tuition.
One could argue that there are a lot of PhDs being granted from institutions that aren't going to enable those people to find work either. If you're getting your JD or PhD from North Podunk State, you've probably not completely thought things through.
Law firms, like pharma, aren't hiring like they used to either, are laying folks off, and the median salary for lawyers is actually going down. Like chemistry, there's also quite a bit of legal outsourcing going on as well. Neither profession is doing well right now.
CJ, I see that you followed up on this post but let me just say here that Brevard is an absolutely gorgeous place with a great quality of life. If you're a chemist who is a fan of the outdoors (mountain biking, hiking, clean air), it's tough to beat Brevard on the East Coast. It's not quite high enough to be above the mosquitoes (only 2,231 ft above sea level) but it'll have fewer bugs than where I am in the Research Triangle. You're also only 45 min to the very hip town of Asheville and only 30 min to their airport (which has major airline service).
ReplyDeleteI'd also add that being in the state and networking with the NC chemistry community might improve one's chances of moving to a chem job with a bigger entity down the road. Moreover, nearby UNC-Asheville and Western Carolina University (in Cullowhee) have a good chemistry programs and are likely to be another source of connections for future jobs and current relationships with academia.
I'm sorry, when it comes to relocation, you get what you pay for. I moved from a metro NW area to a relatively small SE area. To be honest, the only thing that is effectively cheaper here, are the bar tabs. My taxes have gone up my utilities have nearly tripled (sometimes quadrupled) and made up the difference in what I would have paid in rent+utilities before. My health insurance has tripled and sucks. The public schools are abysmal (If through some act of mercy or martyrdom some woman decides to have my child here).
ReplyDeleteAs someone who grew up in the NE, where our parents paid for quality public schools, I find the tiered school systems and small town cronyism to be the most offensive aspects of my "cheaper standard of living". To think my hypothetical children would not be able to get the job that brought me here in the first place.
The cost of food is pretty much universal everywhere. This is something displaced Yankees in the south always feel duped by.
And to add insult to injury, your student loan debt isn't regionally adjusted either.
More often than not, you work your bazillion hours alone leaving behind your old friends who shared your values (and usually your girlfriend).
I guess what makes this move tolerable, is that I am white, and I am in a good community where the young people have accepted their despotism and have given up on settling down. I also don't have to be very active in a local church to be socially involved or connected to the community. But if I drive away from the college, I am reminded of how much worse things could have been, and how truly lucky I am.
I guess I am just sick and tired of having the "cheap standard of living" argument crammed down everyone's throat. Yes, there are places that are bloated with needless expense, but more often than not you get what you pay for. Ideally, "cheap places" are generally only good for those that can go to work, go home, punch out and wait to die, or at least those that have enough patience to wait a few more years until society decides to move the figurative goal posts again. "Family values" are nice, if you have an extended local family.
We all have to move, we all have to take crappy jobs in mediocre locations. We all have to put our human desires for roots and companionship on hold. A career in chemistry might have become our own personal bittersweet saga of "Kung Fu." The last thing that crossed my mind when I took this move was the "cheaper standard of living". Yet it is a talking point I have to endure constantly from hermits and rednecks who try to inflate their self worth.
@Anon10:56 - But tell us how you REALLY feel. :)
ReplyDeleteSorry things aren't working out. As someone who's moved twice in 3 years, I can commiserate a bit...you just can't buy nice furniture or find the really great food until you're in a place for 2-3 years straight.
The last place I lived, it took us a full year to integrate into the community.
ReplyDeleteArr Oh. Eh ... it just struck a chord. After about a year here, things are going ok (after paying for the move, I can usually afford food.), but It is seriously one of the reasons why I don't capitalize on those cheap bar tabs anymore, because I always have to discus the "cheap standard of living." Southern pride and all is one thing, but if you were to describe how proud you were of your daughter, would you describe her as "cheap"?
ReplyDelete"I guess what makes this move tolerable, is that I am white..."
ReplyDeleteQuote of the day.
@Anon10:56(&11:45, I presume): Perhaps you can consider yourself as being on a "Tour of Duty" or "Voyage of Self-Discovery". (Sorry for sounding cheesy.) Although you're working a bazillion hours, are you acquiring skills and knowledge that will enhance your future employment prospects? Or, are you growing weary of science and seriously thinking about a career change? Either way, you still have the time and freedom (sans wife and kids) to drive your career in whatever direction you want. While your quality of life is less than ideal, at least you didn't resort to enlisting in the army to become target practice for the Taliban! Instead of being annoyed by the ignorance and provincial attitude of your hick colleagues, have pity and perhaps gain karma points by subversively improving them.
ReplyDeleteAs with Anon11:36, I can commiserate somewhat with your situation. In the past four years, I've moved twice for employment, most recently because of a mass layoff. Upon re-employment, I took a 20% hit in my gross salary, but fortunately my health insurance and rental costs were reduced by 75% and 50%, respectively. Sales and income tax rates are higher, but the happy hours are CHEAP and the restaurant food portions are enormous, especially for Friday night fish fry. While I find my current research interesting, I am entertaining thoughts of leaving chemistry altogether. Fortunately, I've recently become debt-free and my parents are encouraging me to do something fun with my life.
I do agree with you about the often misrepresented "cheap cost of living" argument. In comparison to Boston, folks throughout the Deep South spend a larger portion of their (smaller) incomes on essentials like gas and food. Then again, NYC (no offense if you're from there) is just expensive in all aspects; you pretty much have to shop in Chinatown or Latino supermarkets for cheap groceries.
Hey Anon10:56, are there vampires, witches, and werewolves in your Southern town like in "True Blood"? At least the occult would make life more interesting! Also, how well can you imitate a Southern accent?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, don't be too harsh on the South. I've been to some very podunk parts of the Mid-Atlantic and, believe or not, California.
@bad wolf: "I guess what makes this move tolerable, is that I am white..."
ReplyDeleteAs bad as it sounds, dude makes a good point. With the exception of certain ghettos, white folks can move to any part of the country without being considered too out of place.
Man, this is not the thread that I thought would go 20+ comments.
ReplyDeleteAnon4:08p: Interested in telling your story? E-mail me at chemjobber -at- gmaildotcom.
Logistically, how would one even move to a new city in 2 weeks? Might be easy if you live in rtp, but to coordinate a move from sf to mc must take longer than that.
ReplyDeleteMy guess would be that a company making that request is a wRning signing to work there. Sadly, it seems the idea of a good job snow a luxury.
My
@Anon4:56: Yeah, i was just amused by the phrasing. He has a few decent points but i recognize that poster from past comments and he is such a self-pitying mope i can't help but laugh at how much more miserable he is than anyone else, how much more terrible his life is than everyone without a PhD. ... sheesh.
ReplyDelete@bad wolf I'm sorry I chimed in. I just wanted to say my piece about the "cheaper standard of living" argument. I don't feel that other people without Ph. D.'s have more fulfilling lives. A postdoc salary is still significantly better than many of my friends who work at drugs stores or as clerks with law degrees.
ReplyDeleteMoving south for a job has been something that people in my family have done since the early 90's. Many machinists in my family have been duped by the "cheaper standard of living" argument, and most have come up quite disappointed. It took most of them years to get readjusted to a lesser standard of living.
@Anon10:09: Hey, sorry i sound down on you, like i said you make some decent points. it just sounded a bit... solipsistic?, but that's not unusual here, and understandable given the trying times we work in.
ReplyDeletefor the time being i too get by with a postdoc and an uncertain future much the same as you describe. good luck to us all.
@bad wolf
ReplyDeleteThat is fair. It's been a rough week. Just when you thought your project was coming together ... maybe that has been affecting my mood, and my writing tone.
Aw, it's nice to see such civility on this blog, especially considering how much of a zoo Pipeline has been lately! Anyway, it sounds like we all need an escape. Ooh, how about tuning in to the latest dirt from the revisited Sezen-Sames drama? It's like watching trash TV, only nerdier.
ReplyDelete@bad wolf: I'm not the same anon who's been conversing with you. Anyway, I hope it's okay if I ask you some career-related questions...
ReplyDeleteHow long have you been a postdoc (hope I didn't touch a sore point)? Is there on-campus pharma or fine-chemical recruiting at your current institution? Have any idea of what your colleagues approaches/schemes are to getting interviewed this fall?
@CJ: Remember Mike Tarselli?
ReplyDeletehttp://chemjobber.blogspot.com/2010/08/awesome-reader-of-century-of-week-mike.html
FYI he's a Chemist at PharmAgra according to linkedin.
@CJ - Make that 30+ comments on this thread...
ReplyDeleteApologies to some in this thread (Anon0714110314p especially), but the spam filter ate a couple of comments. Silly thing.
ReplyDelete@bad wolf: I hope I haven't been sounding solipsistic myself -- it's something I get concerned about.
@anon12:40: sorry i forgot to answer your questions. i have been a postdoc for about twice as long as i expected, but i am in a medical school surrounded by biologists, so it is slower going here. since i am out of a chemistry department i do not have access to standard departmental recruiting (if there is any this year) although if i pushed it through some connections i could (and probably should) interact more with the chem dept.
ReplyDelete"The details of my life are quite inconsequential..."
@chemjobber: not at all, your relentlessly upbeat attitude is a major attraction of this blog. You can see how easily people become embittered by reading the comments here and similar places.