While trying to find the context for this stupefying quote,
Second, some skills are much more sought after than others. For instance, “chemistry graduates are now getting some of the best starting salaries among all graduates,” says Andrew Liveris, the boss of Dow Chemical....I happened upon this little present from Google.*
*Look, that statement just cannot be correct. Or it's a misquote. Or there's some wild contextual problem, like he meant, "...compared to liberal arts graduates." Or he actually meant "chemical engineering graduates."
Here is your context:
ReplyDelete"... If you outsource it, other countries of course start making devices. And then they will build R&D centers and universities around that industry to generate the human and intellectual capital to sustain it, upgrade it, and then design the next generation of devices. So you start by outsourcing production… and end up outsourcing creativity... .... That is one reason that Dow has 500 well-paid Chinese scientists working in China, ..."
"What we need, more than anything, is you."
Andrew Liveris, Michigan State University Eli Broad College of Business Commencement speech, May 7, 2011
http://www.dow.com/about/insights/multimedia/20110507a.htm
I wonder what happened to my comment. Here one moment, gone the next. May be DOW took it down? Did they get my IP? Are their thugs closing on my place even as I am typing this? Or was it the link I posted?
ReplyDeleteThe spam filter is hungry recently. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteIts like googling "Now we can finally see light at the end of the tunnel" but being offered a link to "Near Death Experience"
ReplyDelete@milkshake - I love it! How about "Always darkest before the dawn" and receiving "Revelations / Judgment Day"
ReplyDeleteOr maybe "publish or perish" bringing up sales literature for coffins
I just checked Dow's website, and they do have a decent number of job openings (~20) for chemists in the US, though many of these are coming up under the title 'scientist'. Some are in Midland MI, and some are at the old Rohm & Haas site outside Philadelphia. They also appear to be doing some campus recruiting for people at the Ph.D. level.
ReplyDeleteAre they having trouble filling these jobs? Is it because, like most companies nowadays, are overly specific about the backgrounds they are looking for , with 10-12 bullet points of specifications needed to meet the seemingly endless qualifications for each position.
I don't know what to make of Liveris' quote. How much actual knowledge would he have of the starting salaries at Dow? He certainly can't speak for the entire chemical industry.
I wish people like him would think before they hand out quotes like this.
A8:02: That's what frustrates me, of course. Here's the CEO of a major chemical corporation; he probably employs more chemists than I've met or worked with... He's in a place to have extremely high credibility with reporters and the general public. And he's making a broad brush statement like that?
ReplyDeleteThis bogus quote is going to be out there for a long, long time.
The bullshit with the companies like Dow is that they primarily recruit for US positions through internship / coop programs. What decent PhD program will allow their students a summer to go intern at a company? Not many. Therefore they then get stuck with second or third tier graduate school students.
ReplyDeleteEven if you can get a student from a decent chemistry program, HR will only send resumes of chemists which are ineligible to work FT in the US (without sponsorship). There is a lot of blantant discrimination against those eligible to work in US for companies with internship programs. HR does this in hopes of filling their new sites in developing countries which are rapidly expanding. The thing is that these students do not want to work in their developing countries, they often want to work in the US! The result is that HR doesn't hire those that interned for them for US OR developing country position(because they require US sponsorship and don't want a to move back to a developing country). Additionally HR thinks they can't find people eligible to work in the US (because they selectively eliminated them in their internship recruitment programs). HR then (incorrectly) concludes there is a 'shortage' of chemists in the US in general, therefore the CEOs of these companies then go and meet with Obama in warm fuzzy meetings about 'advancing science through investments in education' and 'sponsoring more immmigration'. And yet the chemists already eligible for work in the US were never considered for any position.
Anon12:08p:
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting set of assertions about HR thinking -- where did they come from?
many advertised positions are bespoken for by the time they get to the HR and the overly detailed requirements in the ad are tailored to fit the pre-selected candidate
ReplyDeleteI've spent quite a bit of time at school that's heavily targeted by DOW recruiters so I have some basic understanding of how they recruit for entry level positions. First of all, second/third tier anon @12:08 pm is writing about - I am sorry, but that just utter BS. This year they are going to recruit chemists at Michigan, Wisconsin, Northwestern, and Iowa State. That's not much but that's because they are not likely to have many positions open, I've been told that last year the plan was around 25, I would expect this year to be not that much different. Second, they only recruit in the Midwest. Midland is really not a fun place, and they have long since learned that the folks from California and Boston have serious trouble adjusting there. Third, they will talk to anyone, but I have never seen them make an offer to anyone who was not American (there'll be an occasional Canadian). Fourth, I've never seen them to make an offer to a postdoc. I am not saying that does not happen ever, I've just never seen it, don't even remember any postdocs from the program going on site. Fifth, I think they come knowing in advance who they will target, again I have no evidence to substantiate this, but that's my distinct impression.
ReplyDeleteMilkshake - exactly right. "Bilingual strongly preferred" and "sponsorship available" are terms which electronically sort (weed out) a lot of workers eligible to work in the US. This allows HR to find temporary workers (ie interns) to be trained and recruited in the US in hopes they will return to new sites in their home (developing) countries.
ReplyDeleteCJ - if you want to confirm you could look at the job posting details of US companies aggressively recruiting for new sites in developing countries who practice recruiting in the US through internships. The trends are there for all to see. Once you know what you are looking for it is very easy to find. Some companies hide these practices better than others. Ever wonder why there is always plenty of recruiting for internships in industry even during periods of massive layoffs? These companies are desperately trying to train and recruit foreign workers educated in US schools for new sites in developing countries. Workers in the US get to train their developing country replacements prior to being laid off.
Anon 7:35pm:
ReplyDeletePerhaps Dow is different. I certainly hope so.
However, discrimination against those eligible to work in the US does occur in order to train those who companies expect will return to developing countries.
Look, this is the third time you've made this assertion without any sort of proof other than your intuition.
ReplyDeleteI certainly can believe it; I've heard of similar situations. But count me skeptical of your specific claims without further data.
Not just intuition, direct observation.
ReplyDeleteAnon @12:08/8:04 pm - I'll be blunt, that really does not make any sense to me from an immigration law standpoint - to hire them, they need to have a employment authorization of some sort, so what do they do? Can't be a student visa/OPT, because they are not non-profit/edducational institution. Put them on H1-B's? That's easy to check, there's a database, I know I've seen it. They can't get them green card, it's expensive and many of them will never leave then, and it defeats the purpose if they are going overseas in the first place. So what exactly do they do? Explain it to me please. With an example, someone you personally know, you know.
ReplyDeleteI am not saying they're not evil a-holes, Lord is my witness - they are, but I don't believe your story the way you wrote it - it just reeks of antiimmigration wackoism a bit too much to my taste.
Internship hires do not require the same visas as FT hires. This allows companies to train foreigners currently in US graduate schools in preparation for full time jobs in developing countries. The J-1 visa is one example and is described in the link below.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.workpermit.com/us/exchange-trainees-and-interns.htm
With selective job search terms, HR departments forwards only J-1 applicants for internship/industrial training programs. They then tell technical hiring managers that "no applicants eligible to work in the US have applied". This cannot be true, and only logically can be a cover-up of discrimination of those eligible to work in the US. After the J-1 (or other training visa) interns have been trained on US soil, they are not hired on as H1-B visas. Instead, the jobs of the people they interned for in the US are posted in developing countries. The US jobs are then subsequently eliminated without hiring any new US full time employees. Transfer of US knowledge to developing countries is then thus completed.
There are also many special extensions made for F-1 OPT for STEM fields.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=9a3d3dd87aa19110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68439c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD
Anon @9:30 am
ReplyDeleteYou just keep repeating the same conjecture without offering any proof whatsoever. But let's look at some examples.
Dow internship (#1106670)
"A minimum requirement for a US-based position is the ability to work legally in the United States on a permanent basis. Applicants who do not indicate that they have the necessary work authorization will not be considered for a US-based position."
BASF internship (#1101332)
"Basic Qualifications:
....
Authorization to work in the US without restrictions or need for future sponsorship"
GE internships (general note)
"You must be authorized to work in your country full-time and without restriction during your internship"
DuPont internship (#2350)
"Qualifications:
The right to work in the U.S. without restrictions."
ExxonMobil internships (general note)
"ExxonMobil participates in the Department of Homeland Security U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services' E-Verify program. Please read the E-Verify Notice and Right to Work Notice before proceeding with your job application"
So I it seems to me they all are quite specific in requiring employment eligibility.
I personally know a lot of guys on J-1s who did industrial internships in grad school. That's the correct authorization to study AND to work as an intern. No sponsorship necessary on the part of the companies.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not there's an industry trend in using these interns to spearhead outsourcing moves, I don't know, but it's plausible.
These J-1 interns are not being used for outsourcing motives, but for a COMPLETE INTERNAL transfer of knowledge AND jobs from the US to developing countries within US-based companies.
ReplyDeleteThis does happen even though it is against the rules of the J-1 visa systems.
@anon 6:03:
ReplyDeleteThe only posting you have shown that would not accept J-1 applicant would be the BASF post which indicates that applicants need to be eligible to work in the US now and in the future.
Anon12:08:
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be making this assertion from "direct observation." Clearly you're working at some kind of large multinational corporation.
You're saying that they're hiring J-1s, training them here and shipping them home to work at their new office in Bangalore/Shenzhen? And you know what the HR office is doing, too?
Look, this is a lot to believe. Until I get more detail, count me as incredibly skeptical.
You're welcome to e-mail me (confidentiality promised) at chemjobber -at- gmaildotcom.
ReplyDeleteI do recall a job announcement in the print edition of C & E News several months ago from Cytec (the mid-sized chemical company formerly known as American Cyanamid). It was for a research job in their Stanford CT labs, and I believe it was for a new or relatively new Ph.D. I also recall it saying that the ability to speak Mandarin Chinese was strongly preferred.
ReplyDeleteObviously, the intent was to train the person here in the US, then move them to whatever facilities Cytec has in China. Quite obviously, the grand majority of Americans would not be in the running for such a position. Whether an American position would sooner or later be eliminated once the transfer to China was done, was not clear.