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| I averaged probably 2 of these a day, maybe a little more Photo credit: blisstree.com |
I don't really have much to say about this subject than I already have. To Dr. Quiñones-Hinojosa's credit, he doesn't seem to hide these facts from his workers before they're hired and pushes himself at the same pace as he appears to push his workers. His sacrifice?:
"The area in which I have failed the most is as a father," Quiñones-Hinojosa readily admits. It is something he is trying to correct, by spending more time with his kids and shuttling them to swimming lessons, (although phoning lab members on the way).Uh, wow. I don't really know what to say about that one.
I was surprised to read a quote from Professor Steven Buchwald of MIT (and of JosiPhos ligand fame), however:
Chemist Stephen Buchwald of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology urges the members of his lab to take a month's holiday every year, and not to think about work when they're gone. "The fact is, I want people to be able to think," he says. "If they're completely beaten down, they're not going to be very creative." His approach does not seem to have hurt productivity: Thomson Reuters declared Buchwald one of the most highly cited chemists from 1999 to 2009, with an average of more than 86 citations for his 171 papers.I've never met Professor Buchwald (I saw him speak once); I have no idea whether his vacation policy is a reality or a dare. But I find it somewhat difficult to believe that students actually take a month off. If they do, more power to them.
Readers, what was the longest period of vacation you had during graduate school? I think I took 7 days off (2 + 5) for my wedding and honeymoon.
I've had this theory for quite some time now that you can only be truly productive for a certain number of hours per week. The individual variation is of course tremendous, but I highly suspect that the average (even among let's say scientist whatever that means) is way below 40 hours a week. Way, way below. TRULY PRODUCTIVE HOURS? Perhaps 10-12. Honestly. To answer your original question: 5-6 weeks, every summer! Sweden is an amazing country in this respect. (And frozen Hell during the winter.)
ReplyDelete"Working" in this manner is farcical and dangerous (and utterly pointless as Dr Freddy points out so accurately). Quiñones-Hinojosa's admittance about his parenting skills speaks volumes. What a pathetic figure he cuts in this truly depressing article.
ReplyDeleteI took off 20 days during my 5th year of grad school. My sister did a med school rotation in Australia, so I met her when she was done and we traveled for 2.5 weeks. It was an opportunity I couldn't pass up, and my advisor was ok with it. Previous to that trip, I only took off a few days at a time.
ReplyDeleteThe most I ever took off at one stretch was a "long" Xmas break, for about 5 days (one of which was Xmas, of course).
ReplyDeleteAs a postdoc, I went out to a conference for (gasp!) 3 days, and I went on a summer "vacation" for 4. Of course, I was followed on all of these breaks by emails from my advisors and labmates.
I've heard rumors in my old dept that people now "take time to write" instead of being in lab, they run off to the library for 2-3 months in their 5th year.
Must be nice.
Diet Dr. Pepper and Jim Bean were the preferred beverages in my lab.
ReplyDeleteHa! CJ, my randomly generated code is "fackups".
Nothing like running a 10g column on Christmas Eve at 10 pm...
ReplyDelete"Sure, you can take a month off... just don't expect to get a letter...."
I was able to take a three week vacation in the middle of my graduate studies. My boss didn't have any issues with it.
ReplyDeleteI get some awfully mixed messages on this. On the one hand, our advisor encourages or at least verbally and without encouragement speaks of us taking vacation in our PhD program, though if there's little other progress you'll also hear negatively about not spending time in the lab on the weekends. At times it seems contradictory, but that can be reconciled with the theory that if you have work or progress that is limited by your lack of presence or effort, you're expected to understand that and put in the work and time. However, everyone simply needs a break. He takes off at least a couple weeks every June and this place can be a ghost town in late December as well, when really, even if you're here, you're not likely being super productive.
ReplyDeleteThis program is different, in the productivity/expectations perspective, than my career as a consultant - then, even while you can be 'available' out of the office and clear your load for some (short) vacations, it's a real limitation to spend more than a couple days ever out of the office, and everything actually IS measured in billable hours (i.e., productive units of work-time).
On another note, we recently lost a young rising star faculty member to a tragic accident. My advisor attended his funeral and recounted at some (surprising, for him) length what was said and who was there. This faculty member had developed a great niche for himself, was well respected in the field and on campus. He published many papers and brought in a ton of grant money. Not one bit of that is how people remembered him, and our advisor, surprisingly, took the opportunity to point out that this highlighted what really mattered in your life as a whole, and we as students should keep that in mind.
ReplyDeleteI think that's the core of my question with the Buchwald group, Laura -- does the median group member get 1 month off, with no repercussion or peer comment? Or is it just the lab star / senior member that can do so?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I have an opinion either way; graduate school is quite personal for each student. But when the statement is made 'we get a month off', I have to ask -- what does that mean?
In relation to what Eka-silicon wrote, I seem to remember someone on one of these chemistry blogs relaying a story about their advisor calling people on Christmas to let them know he expected them to be working since they did not observe the Christian faith.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to Buchwald, a lot of chatter was generated about him when the Nobel prize was announced this year, and not much of it supported this idea of him being so magnanimous with vacation time.
As with Laura, my graduate advisor had a tendency to speak out both sides of his mouth. One day we were encouraged to take time off and not burn out, the next we were being chastised because not enough people were working late or on the weekends.
Hmmm ... I hope that they do get to take time. My postdoctoral advisor was very generous and accepting of reasons for time off, which many of the grad student's used. I hope that Buchwald actually follows through with this.
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing, though, is what Laura brings up. No one is going to remember you for the extra couple of papers that you get every year from being psychotic. They are (hopefully) going to remember you as being a good human being.
My PhD alma mater also just lost a young/fantastic scientist all too early. More importantly, he was a very generous and engaging man who was always open and kind with me and others.
Many years ago David Dolphin published an article of remininces of RB Woodward. Entering Woodward's lab as a postdoc, he asked about time off. The reply was "Well, I take Christmas Day off.
ReplyDeleteEmulated by Woodward wannabees ever since.
Change those to 24oz Diet Dews, and I'm right there with ya, CJ. And occasionally a few cups of joe to boot.
ReplyDeleteWith the exception of my last year of grad school, I took off one week in the summer (usually around 4th of July) and another between Christmas and New Year's. I was also close enough to home that I made it in for a long weekend on Thanksgiving. My advisor was fine with it.
My last year, though, I spent Thanksgiving as a regular work week and the place was desolate. Also, for my Christmas break that year, I drove home on Christmas Eve and drove back on the 26th. During this time, my advisor was intentionally terrorizing me and would ask me if/when I was taking off during these periods. When I told him I was taking little-to-no time off, his reply? "Ah you're punishing yourself. I like that."
I've always worked in labs with very lax vacation policies. Never hurt our productivity. Two were labs of NAS members. Now I am starting my own academic lab and plan to continue the tradition. I tell students that if they're working too many hours, that they need to work smarter, not harder. What I value most is creativity.
ReplyDeleteA1:01p: Interested in talking? E-mail me at chemjobber -at- gmaildotcom. Confidentiality guaranteed.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, two of my former mentors took year long sabbaticals away from lab, with most of the time spent overseas. Lab was just as productive, if not more so, without them around.
ReplyDeleteLesson: Set up a lab with good culture and good people. Don't micromanage, and let your people drive their own success.
I definitely took that headline to mean that whatever you were going to describe in this post... I get to take a month vacation from it and go to the Buchwald lab for a month. As if I was winning a Wheel of Fortune prize or something.
ReplyDeleteI took 2 weeks around my wedding/honeymoon (the week before and after the wedding, which was 600 miles away from my lab). I'm pretty sure I usually took a week or two around Xmas, too, to visit family 800 miles away from lab. But I remember being in lab when my labmate got the 1H NMR that confirmed the successful completion of our synthesis of brevetoxin on New Years Eve.
You went there, didn't you? Now you suffer the consequences:
ReplyDeleteFrom my favorite Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. review of all time: 2002 (41) 2678-2720.
One of us (K.C.N.) will never forget the scene in the laboratory on that day in January 1998, who upon arrival at 8:00 a.m. found the other (P.S.B.) fast asleep on his desk with a clean NMR spectrum of compound 64 by his side. It was classic brilliance and characteristic dedication from the team working on this project!...
Having practiced the final act, with all the necessary preparations complete, we sharpened our sword and engaged with the Minotaur for the last time. The final reaction was set up at 1:00 a.m. on April 12, 1999.A few hours later it was done (Scheme 29 b)! I (K.C.N.) was to learn of the athlos upon my arrival in the lab at 8:00 a.m. that day. Needless to say, pure adrenaline kept Phil and Zhong awake past the successful isolation of CP-225,917(2) and its subsequent conversion into CP-263,114 (1). Within 24 hours of that final blow, two communications were dispatched to Angewandte Chemie. [5a,b] The triumphant team is shown in Figure 8b celebrating their accomplishment with smiles and grins.
;-)
Take that, Minotaur. RAAAAAAAAH!!!!
ReplyDeleteI am might Zeus, dammit! My thunderbolts of brilliance will slay all obstacles in the path to a Nobel, my birthright!
ReplyDeleteI did my PhD in the UK where I think the attitude may be significantly different from in the US. I took off a couple of weeks each summer and a couple of weeks off over christmas over new year. Everyone did the same. No pressure to work stupid hours existed (or at least none that I felt). If I was pushed to avoid holiday and to work weekends as a matter of routine I would certainly be pushing back, I think.
ReplyDeleteI think it is completely normal in Europe to take a couple of weeks off each year. In Sweden where I am currently a PhD student, you are entitled by law to have five weeks per year and I think most actually do take it.
ReplyDelete8-3-11 1:33 & 1:41
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've seen, though, unless someone gets their PhD from Cambridge, ETH, or possibly some of the schools in Germany European educated folks have a hard time finding jobs in the USA unless they get an elite US postdoc.
Some folks have the opinion a European PhD isn't on snuff with a US PhD from a top-tier institute.
I am currently doing a postdoc in France where I am entitled to 51 (!!) days of holidays per year (this is not the same for every work contract in France but astonishingly is not that uncommon). Since I have decided to leave academia after this postdoc I don't have to worry about future letters from my current supervisor. I will therefore take every single last vacation day that I am entitled to :-)
ReplyDelete@Anon1025: Many folks (including those who are, sadly, in control of so-called science-based companies) have the opinion that the PhD degree, regardless of where it's from, isn't "on snuff" with the PMP, Six-Sigma, and other Corporate-gimmick certifications.
ReplyDeleteIf the world is really going to end next year, I hope that all grad students and postdocs who are slaving away under tyrannical PIs will collectively take a break from lab work prior to the apocalypse.
FROM MOUNT OLYMPUS (A.K.A. LA JOLLA):
ReplyDeleteHA! HA! HA! Foolish mortals! Neither Ragnarök nor the end of b'ak'tun 13 will get in the way of the maitotoxin total synthesis. It will be done, even if we have to use atomic force microscopy for structural confirmation! Mark my words, the ACIE communication will be uploaded to the Wiley servers before they and everything else on this Earth are obliterated!
ALL, EVEN CHEMJOBBER, SHALL LOVE ME AND DESPAIR!!!
You know, one month off isn't all that uncommon, as long as it's a well-deserving one month off ;) . In my grad lab, we got 4 weeks off as well, and we worked for a PI who posted a memo not unlike the infamous Carreira letter on our bulletin board from his post-doc advisor at Berkeley. It was common for the foreign students in my lab to save that month off and go on an extended oversees trip to visit family. Of course, I've also been in lab when my PI has also been in his office on dates like Dec 31, July 4, and Dec 24. I'll ask my Buchwald group insider and see if I can get a verification on his policies.
ReplyDeleteI think that a PhD from a good British or European insitution is easily on a par with a US PhD. Don't forget that one of the reasons PhDs take longer in the US is the taught element at the start of the course.. this doesn't exist in the UK because british undergraduates will finish with a more in depth knowledge of their subject than their US equivalents (stemming from the earlier - at age 16 - subject specialisation that we have in the UK).
ReplyDelete@azmanam: You and I know each other fairly well....I was also around when your buddy finished brevetoxin on New Year's...
ReplyDeleteA little while after that, myself and a grad student were hanging around on another New Year's Eve to collect the spectra for our just-finished natural pdt.
Apparently, New Year's brings successful completion to molecular endeavors (maybe 'cause no one wants to keep the project going another year!)
@IntricateExpressions: What is this "infamous Carreira letter" that you speak of? He seemed like a nice enough guy during his seminar visit.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous09/04/11 1:10AM
ReplyDeleteSo, is the typical British A.B./S.B. (with his/her more in-depth subject-specific knowledge) having an easier time getting hired than his/her US counterpart?
@Anon10:44 - It's the "Dear Guido" letter from Carreira....just Google it and you'll find it.
ReplyDelete@Anon1044: http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2010/06/22/something-deeply-wrong-with-chemistry/
ReplyDeleteEnjoy.
For my PhD I took a total of six weeks off every year, including a month long honeymoon in eastern Europe, which did not prevent me from publishing 10 papers as first or second author in JACS, Nature Chem, CEJ... etc. Conversely, I've taken almost no vacation in my postdoc and have only two first author papers (granted, one in JACS) to show for it. I'm fairly convinced that grad students (and postdocs) should take time off... as much as a European... particularly during the depressing winter months, to think about themselves and not their boss. If they're naturally inclined to think about their work (as I am) then that's what they'll focus on regardless. If they're just there to get a higher degree (for reasons I don't understand) they'll think about something else and there's nothing that can be done about that. At least they won't have a crap attitude and bring the morale of the lab down.
ReplyDeleteThe stuff about brevetoxin B brought back memories of something else that KCN said got in the way (from: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.199605881/abstract)
ReplyDelete"Projections were made that by the end of August 1994 we would reach our destination and submit the papers for publication early in September. I was convinced that these five men would carry out their mission as planned, for by then I was well aware of their talents and commitment. As it happened, one more August would come and go before we would arrive at "Ithaca". In my calculations, I had neglected a small detail, a detail that became an important factor, and one that "Poseidon" would exploit at our expense and inflict one more delay before the final success...
During the summer of 1994, when the final campaign towards brevetoxin B was taking place, the World Cup in Soccer was hosted in the U. S., and all the members of the brevetoxin B team were either European or Japanese! Placing such soccer fanatics on the team for this highly demanding operation was rather unfortunate. Well, you can never think of everything in total synthesis! Brevetoxin B could not, however, escape for much longer, and before the end of the fall in that year it was destined to yield to the enthusiasm and pressure of these relentless professionals. Needless to say, this victory was to serve well as a consolation to each one of them for their countries’ not winning the World Cup!"
Stu, I confess to being a little ambivalent about KCN's self-indulgence here. Why does he get to write about this and not suffer the editor's lash?
ReplyDeleteThere should be limits and they should be enforced equally across the board. That said, there are times when a little latitude is required on an ad hoc basis. This, however, is a little OTT in my humble opinion. This is something for a Commentary article, or your memoirs, not a Review article. But then again, neither of us know the circumstances about how that article was commissioned. There are times when I've been a little uneasy about some text or a title, but you can only push so far before some people reach breaking point and start threatening to pull stuff completely. And I'm not necessarily worried about that, unless myself or one of our team has invested a lot of time and effort to get to that point. Then it's about being pragmatic.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm glad I'm not the only one to (slightly) raise an eyebrow.
ReplyDelete